Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:09 am  

Theoretically, the signing of ex-stars should work. If they were good for us once, why won't they be good for us again?, etc.

And yet ... it doesn't work.

I'm struggling to think of anyone who has come back, even after short stints away, who has impressed. You're probably going back as far as Bill Ashurst in the late 70s, and let's be honest, even Bill Ashurst poor was better than most of the players we had around then.

I wonder if it's something psychological. For me, players who sign a 'return to Wigan' clause are doing it as a form of safety-net; i.e. 'if it doesn't work in Aus or RU, I can always come back and get a well-paid gig at Wigan'. Which means they view us as a second-best option, and maybe, given our salary cap restrictions, they are right. But I don't think this is a mindset we should encourage - because what it seems to translate into is players returning having failed at the other option, and even then seeming to think they don't have to try very hard.

For me, it's simple. Once players are agitating to leave, they should be advised that this is it ... when they're gone, they're gone.

That might make them think twice about taking a big chance in a different game or on a different continent. And it might also revive our one-time reputation for only signing those who are fully committed to the Wigan cause. (And the first person I'd apply this to is Dan Sarginson, or Josh Charnley, depending on which of the two of them is making the bigger noise about Plan A 'not having worked out' for them).

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:38 am  

Cruncher wrote:

Theoretically, the signing of ex-stars should work. If they were good for us once, why won't they be good for us again?, etc.

And yet ... it doesn't work.

I'm struggling to think of anyone who has come back, even after short stints away, who has impressed. You're probably going back as far as Bill Ashurst in the late 70s, and let's be honest, even Bill Ashurst poor was better than most of the players we had around then.

I wonder if it's something psychological. For me, players who sign a 'return to Wigan' clause are doing it as a form of safety-net; i.e. 'if it doesn't work in Aus or RU, I can always come back and get a well-paid gig at Wigan'. Which means they view us as a second-best option, and maybe, given our salary cap restrictions, they are right. But I don't think this is a mindset we should encourage - because what it seems to translate into is players returning having failed at the other option, and even then seeming to think they don't have to try very hard.

For me, it's simple. Once players are agitating to leave, they should be advised that this is it ... when they're gone, they're gone.

That might make them think twice about taking a big chance in a different game or on a different continent. And it might also revive our one-time reputation for only signing those who are fully committed to the Wigan cause. (And the first person I'd apply this to is Dan Sarginson, or Josh Charnley, depending on which of the two of them is making the bigger noise about Plan A 'not having worked out' for them).

I think that approach would benefit our competitors far more than us. It wouldn't increase our chances of retaining our players. Then if they come back, they end up haunting us playing for Warrington, Saints etc. Classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. You may be onto something with the 'second choice' idea I suppose, I still think we are better leaving the door open and making the decision at the time they want to return, we don't have to automatically say yes. I'd say the real issue is the length of contracts we are offering, which has limited our ability to make changes, and potentially allows players to get too comfy.

FWIW - I don't think there's anything in this Gelling rumour, and think it's pretty poor form to spread rumours about his commitment just because he has flown home to see his girlfriend after she has been in a car crash (not saying you are, just a general comment). Who wouldn't do the same? It makes absolute sense for him to go back over Christmas. I think Sarginson would come back and do well in SL, but don't think he would be a good use of our (presumably very limited) cap space, given that we have good starters at 1, 3 and 4. People are reading way too much into the squad numbers not being released also. They are barely even late by our standards.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:26 pm  

Grimmy wrote:

I think that approach would benefit our competitors far more than us. It wouldn't increase our chances of retaining our players. Then if they come back, they end up haunting us playing for Warrington, Saints etc. Classic case of cutting off your nose to spite your face. You may be onto something with the 'second choice' idea I suppose, I still think we are better leaving the door open and making the decision at the time they want to return, we don't have to automatically say yes. I'd say the real issue is the length of contracts we are offering, which has limited our ability to make changes, and potentially allows players to get too comfy.

FWIW - I don't think there's anything in this Gelling rumour, and think it's pretty poor form to spread rumours about his commitment just because he has flown home to see his girlfriend after she has been in a car crash (not saying you are, just a general comment). Who wouldn't do the same? It makes absolute sense for him to go back over Christmas. I think Sarginson would come back and do well in SL, but don't think he would be a good use of our (presumably very limited) cap space, given that we have good starters at 1, 3 and 4. People are reading way too much into the squad numbers not being released also. They are barely even late by our standards.

I'm struggling to think of any players who have come back to SL after stints in Aus or RU who've shown any capacity to haunt us ... though I agree that you can't make this a general rule. If, for example, Sam Burgess or James Graham wanted to come back to SL, I'd hope we'd be first in the queue with big offers.

Don't know anything about the Gelling situ, so happy to wait and see what happens there. As for Sarginson, I'm with you on that too - the one area we don't seem to have a problem in is the three-quarters, so why sign a new one?

Overall, I'm worried about this coming season. I thought 2017 ended in such a bombshell of disappointment that we'd inevitably see lots of changes. Instead, nothing's really happened. I should have expected that, of course - you can't just fire players off mid-contract. You have to find a club who wants them, and at present I doubt there'd be many (if any) takers for the majority of our personnel. I can't help thinking, though, that 2018 will be the last-chance saloon for quite a few people (especially on the coaching staff).

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:59 pm  

Cruncher wrote:

I'm struggling to think of any players who have come back to SL after stints in Aus or RU who've shown any capacity to haunt us ... though I agree that you can't make this a general rule. If, for example, Sam Burgess or James Graham wanted to come back to SL, I'd hope we'd be first in the queue with big offers.

Don't know anything about the Gelling situ, so happy to wait and see what happens there. As for Sarginson, I'm with you on that too - the one area we don't seem to have a problem in is the three-quarters, so why sign a new one?

Overall, I'm worried about this coming season. I thought 2017 ended in such a bombshell of disappointment that we'd inevitably see lots of changes. Instead, nothing's really happened. I should have expected that, of course - you can't just fire players off mid-contract. You have to find a club who wants them, and at present I doubt there'd be many (if any) takers for the majority of our personnel. I can't help thinking, though, that 2018 will be the last-chance saloon for quite a few people (especially on the coaching staff).

Yeah agreed. Below are the contract expiry dates for our top earners from what I can see on the internet. 2019 looks like a big year if we were looking at a clear-out. Hopefully they are doing everything they can to retain Gildart and Bateman (though I suspect Bateman will be NRL-bound given his recent interview in the Aussie papers)

2018
Gildart, Leuluai, O'Loughlin, Bateman, Isa

2019
S.Tomkins, Manfredi, Gelling, Burgess, Nu'uasala, McIlorum, J.Tomkins, Clubb, Powell

2020
Flower, Tautai

2021
Williams

2022
Farrell

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:18 pm  

Grimmy wrote:

People are reading way too much into the squad numbers not being released also. They are barely even late by our standards.

Think you are wrong about this. The new shirts are out and it is customary for clubs to announce squad numbers in tandem. The only possible reason for not doing so is that changes are afoot.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:26 pm  

Grimmy wrote:

Yeah agreed. Below are the contract expiry dates for our top earners from what I can see on the internet. 2019 looks like a big year if we were looking at a clear-out. Hopefully they are doing everything they can to retain Gildart and Bateman (though I suspect Bateman will be NRL-bound given his recent interview in the Aussie papers)

2018
Gildart, Leuluai, O'Loughlin, Bateman, Isa

2019
S.Tomkins, Manfredi, Gelling, Burgess, Nu'uasala, McIlorum, J.Tomkins, Clubb, Powell

2020
Flower, Tautai

2021
Williams

2022
Farrell

FPN - 2018

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:38 pm  

Wigan6/Leeds1 Andy wrote:

League Express saying we are in talks to bring back Sarginson (Hull KR also interested).

Jesus wept.

If we sign one more ex-player, Wane and Radlinski need to resign.

Please don't sign Dan 'Toxic Avenger' Sarginson.....

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:10 pm  

Aboveusonlypie wrote:

Think you are wrong about this. The new shirts are out and it is customary for clubs to announce squad numbers in tandem. The only possible reason for not doing so is that changes are afoot.

When I used to buy replica shirts, I can definitely remember having to wait to get the numbers printed some years. Most recent example:

2015 - Shirts 25/11 Numbers 12/12

Roughly the same dates as we may be looking at here, and we made 0 late season signings that year. Could be wrong, but I think we're just a bit poorly run at times in this area (e.g usually one of the last clubs to release their kit, not having shirts in for Christmas some years, the away shirt often only being released after the team have played friendlies). Another potential factor - maybe Wane is using it to push players to train harder, knowing they are competing for the shirt (e.g Escare v S.Tomkins for #1, Davies v Burgess for #5, Sutton v Nu'uasala for #8, Bateman v J.Tomkins for #11)

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:13 pm  

Grimmy wrote:

Yeah agreed. Below are the contract expiry dates for our top earners from what I can see on the internet. 2019 looks like a big year if we were looking at a clear-out. Hopefully they are doing everything they can to retain Gildart and Bateman (though I suspect Bateman will be NRL-bound given his recent interview in the Aussie papers)

2018
Gildart, Leuluai, O'Loughlin, Bateman, Isa

2019
S.Tomkins, Manfredi, Gelling, Burgess, Nu'uasala, McIlorum, J.Tomkins, Clubb, Powell

2020
Flower, Tautai

2021
Williams

2022
Farrell

I've underlined the ones I'd be quite happy to see move on when the contracts are up (not all because I don't rate them - for example, I feel that Lockers and Clubb are now too injury-prone, and that at least Lockers won't miss half of every season if he's coaching). But it's amazing to think that this team won the Grand Final in 2016.

Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:18 pm  

Grimmy wrote:

When I used to buy replica shirts, I can definitely remember having to wait to get the numbers printed some years. Most recent example:

2015 - Shirts 25/11 Numbers 12/12

Roughly the same dates as we may be looking at here, and we made 0 late season signings that year. Could be wrong, but I think we're just a bit poorly run at times in this area (e.g usually one of the last clubs to release their kit, not having shirts in for Christmas some years, the away shirt often only being released after the team have played friendlies). Another potential factor - maybe Wane is using it to push players to train harder, knowing they are competing for the shirt (e.g Escare v S.Tomkins for #1, Davies v Burgess for #5, Sutton v Nu'uasala for #8, Bateman v J.Tomkins for #11)

Dont think Davies and Burgess will be competing for number 5. Davies will be 2 if anything. He plays on the right. But I take your point. I hope Wane looks past his favouritism and finally gives Bateman the 11 shirt (not that it makes a difference in practice).