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DaveO 
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Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:12 pm  
Aboveusonlypie wrote:
The idea of this being policy of the club is nonsense.


Of course it's a policy of the club. Have you completely forgotten the lengths that IL went to to explain it when players left? Or how when players returned, particularly Sam T how he lauded the policy was working?

Here is one of many quotes that shows it is a policy:

Lenagan said: “What’s the point of fighting the competition when it’s there? “It’s far better to have a strategy that facilitates these players going, makes money for Wigan, and encourages them to come back. And I believe 50 per cent who leave for the NRL will come back to Wigan, and they’ll be better players when they do. “We already have them signed up to salaries, there are no negotiations to do."

Read more at: https://www.wigantoday.net/sport/rugby- ... -1-5608647
Aboveusonlypie wrote:
The idea of this being policy of the club is nonsense.


Of course it's a policy of the club. Have you completely forgotten the lengths that IL went to to explain it when players left? Or how when players returned, particularly Sam T how he lauded the policy was working?

Here is one of many quotes that shows it is a policy:

Lenagan said: “What’s the point of fighting the competition when it’s there? “It’s far better to have a strategy that facilitates these players going, makes money for Wigan, and encourages them to come back. And I believe 50 per cent who leave for the NRL will come back to Wigan, and they’ll be better players when they do. “We already have them signed up to salaries, there are no negotiations to do."

Read more at: https://www.wigantoday.net/sport/rugby- ... -1-5608647
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Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:35 pm  
It was quite well bandied about by Lenegan and the club, that we would have 'first dibs' if these players came back . That was used IMHO to quell the rising anger by fans when we sold Sam .
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Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:47 pm  
Cherry.Pie wrote:

Leuluai might have been doing okay for New Zealand Warriors (and no better than okay as he wasn't a stand out player) but he offered absolutely none of the positive attributes of the player he was replacing. We needed a quality halfback. It's debatable whether he's even a decent halfback. There's no way he was the sensible choice to replace Smith, so why did the club sign him? Quite clearly because he used to play for


I can’t believe, even with hindsight that anybody would try to say that TL is not a better player than Smith! You talk about his positive attributes but for me he had only 2. His effort and his odd drop goal. His negative attributes on the other hand far outweigh them. He’s slow, has poor passing accuracy, can’t defend, puts most of his kicks straight into the fullback or wingers hands and makes far too many poor decisions.

Leuluai may not have had a great season but I’d rather we had him in the side than Smith every day of the week!

As for players coming back, it says an awful lot about SW and the club that practically every player that leaves wants to come back when the opportunity arises! SW has been hammered on here by some for being a bully and having his favourites but surely they’re not all his favourites and if his bullying reputation is accurate, these lads wouldn’t be coming back.

There was good reason to be positive about every returning player at the time they were brought back and maybe, again with hindsight some haven’t worked out as well as we’d hoped but nobody has a crystal ball and IL, SW and KR are doing the best the can for the club within the salary cap rules. I hope agelling comes back but if he doesn’t, we’re not in a position to get a Greg Inglis or a Gene Miles and Sarginson is probably as good as we could hope for in the modern era.
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Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:05 pm  
Bigredwarrior wrote:
As for players coming back, it says an awful lot about SW and the club that practically every player that leaves wants to come back when the opportunity arises! SW has been hammered on here by some for being a bully and having his favourites but surely they’re not all his favourites and if his bullying reputation is accurate, these lads wouldn’t be coming back.


It's a job. If it says anything it is there was no better offer on the table from any other UK club.

There was good reason to be positive about every returning player at the time they were brought back and maybe, again with hindsight some haven’t worked out as well as we’d hoped but nobody has a crystal ball and IL, SW and KR are doing the best the can for the club within the salary cap rules. I hope gelling comes back but if he doesn’t, we’re not in a position to get a Greg Inglis or a Gene Miles and Sarginson is probably as good as we could hope for in the modern era.


You didn't need to crystal ball to work out they would only be back if things didn't work out. IL's justification for this was they would see contracts out in the NRL (or RU) then after a while come back better players. That has not happened with any of them and it never was going to happen. If they had been as successful as James Graham they would not be back.
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Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:48 pm  
Aboveusonlypie wrote:
The idea of this being policy of the club is nonsense. Every case has its' own merits. For example when Mossop returned he had an an offer to go to Leeds. He was an English international prop. He has suffered from injury but when fully fit is a good player as he proved last season at Salford. So he had a pretty good choice of clubs. He chose Wigan. I'm pretty sure that when Sam and Joel came on the market they could have gone to any Super League club of their choice too. IL would have been lynched if Sam had gone to Wire. Likewise with Joe Burgess.

In fact people are using 20/20 hindsight here. I recall no outcry when any of these players returned (though I for one, knew that Tommy would be no replacement for Matty Smith, and I was roundly shouted down)

The club weighs up what it has and decides whether in theory that player can improve the team. In this case is Sarginson a better option than Sa'u? I would say he is, others may disagree. He does have the benefit of being a big game player whilst Sa'u is unproven.


Yeah i am going to disagree with that one Aboveus. I would say Sa'u stands out above Sarginson from what i have seen. Very true that Sa'u is unproven but so was Sarginson and for me is still relatively unproven. His bad games far outweigh his good ones for me. Sa'u for me has the much better potential. Also Sarginson is a trouble maker. I won't go into detail because my post will be deleted but he is.
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Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:54 pm  
Bigredwarrior wrote:
I can’t believe, even with hindsight that anybody would try to say that TL is not a better player than Smith! You talk about his positive attributes but for me he had only 2. His effort and his odd drop goal. His negative attributes on the other hand far outweigh them. He’s slow, has poor passing accuracy, can’t defend, puts most of his kicks straight into the fullback or wingers hands and makes far too many poor decisions.

Leuluai may not have had a great season but I’d rather we had him in the side than Smith every day of the week!

As for players coming back, it says an awful lot about SW and the club that practically every player that leaves wants to come back when the opportunity arises! SW has been hammered on here by some for being a bully and having his favourites but surely they’re not all his favourites and if his bullying reputation is accurate, these lads wouldn’t be coming back.

There was good reason to be positive about every returning player at the time they were brought back and maybe, again with hindsight some haven’t worked out as well as we’d hoped but nobody has a crystal ball and IL, SW and KR are doing the best the can for the club within the salary cap rules. I hope agelling comes back but if he doesn’t, we’re not in a position to get a Greg Inglis or a Gene Miles and Sarginson is probably as good as we could hope for in the modern era.


Funnily enough I don't believe anyone would try to say that TL is not a better player than Smith either. That's why I didn't say it.

What I did say is that Leuluai can't do any of the few things that Smith could do well. Now obviously by the end of his time at Wigan Smith wasn't doing anything particularly well. However, we know what he could do when he was on form. He had one of the best kicking games in Super League. What we needed on top of that to improve was a halfback who had a good kicking game and who was creative. Someone who could play to a structure but make smart plays by reading the game too.

Tommy doesn't offer that. Tommy has never offered that. Sure, at New Zealand Warriors he was a steady player alongside a more creative and dangerous attacking threat (Johnson) just as Smith was for us alongside Williams. Tommy has never been a creative half. He's never really played like a playmaker. When he was with us last he was a runner and played far more like Williams than Smith. And of course there's the issue that Tommy's kicking game is poor and inconsistent and his long kicking game pretty much doesn't exist. So to that extent, Tommy didn't do any of the good things that Smith has done for us in the past.

What benefits have we got from Tommy instead of Smith? Literally every single negative you've put against Smith applies to Leuluai except for poor defence. And there is the only benefit so far - his defence is far superior. If that's all we wanted for improvement we could have put a back row forward in the halves instead.

There are reasons why Tommy has ended up at hooker so often in his career. One of them is that he's never been good enough at halfback to nail it down as his best position. Yes, given the choice between Smith and Leuluai at halfback I'd always choose Leuluai, but I'd rather choose neither.

Perhaps there were reasons to be positive about the players coming back - Joel was quality early in his RL career and was an RU international before injury, Sam was a huge star first time round, Tommy still a NZ international, Budgie one of the most exciting wingers in the comp and Mossop, well, no seriously there's absolutely no common sense or logical reasoning for making that signing. I think he came in the same year Leeds signed Cuthbertson. There never has been and never will be any argument to convince me that bringing Mossop back wasn't just plain stupid.

Taken in isolation you can justify some of the re-signings. However, looking at the bigger picture 0 from 5 have come back as better players, which is something Lenagan stated they would do. So I don't think you could blame anyone for being underwhelmed and pessimistic about the prospects of Sarginson returning, especially after a year out through injury and having no form before that.
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Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:05 pm  
On Junior Sa'u, I'm no big fan, but he played in the NRL for Newcastle for years, he's been at Salford a fair while now, in what on earth sense is he "unproven"? He's 30 years old! Hardly an untested rookie.
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Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:58 pm  
Sarginson officially released by the Titans. SURELY he isn't coming back to us?

I hope he goes to Hull KR as rumoured.

“One thing I am is honest. I was upfront with Dan and said he might struggle to crack it in our NRL squad,” coach Garth Brennan said of Sarginson.


“There was an English club that showed interest in him which was beyond 2018 and I wasn’t willing to extend at this point.

“I didn’t want to stand in the kid’s way if he can have an opportunity to go home and play in the Super League. I wasn’t going to stand in his way.”
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Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:33 pm  
Wigg'n wrote:
Sarginson officially released by the Titans. SURELY he isn't coming back to us?

I hope he goes to Hull KR as rumoured.



Add on the bit about season ending injury plus off field bother and thanks but no thanks.
To be fair to him he probably played his best stuff when he got shifted to FB but do we need another player in that position ?
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Re: Rumours and signings v9 : Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:51 am  
Cherry_Warrior wrote:
Yeah i am going to disagree with that one Aboveus. I would say Sa'u stands out above Sarginson from what i have seen. Very true that Sa'u is unproven but so was Sarginson and for me is still relatively unproven. His bad games far outweigh his good ones for me. Sa'u for me has the much better potential. Also Sarginson is a trouble maker. I won't go into detail because my post will be deleted but he is.


Is Sa'u available?
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