Re: Charnley : Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:34 am  

sally cinnamon wrote:

But we still finished top and made two major finals even with this weak side. Which says something about TS ability to get the best out of a mediocre squad, even if you put the blame for the decline in the quality of the squad on him.

Name me one other coach in SL who would have made major finals with the squad we had in 2016...?

I don't think we can take much comfort from beating the following to get to Wembley.

Oldham (Away)
Widnes (Home)
Wakefile (Neutral Venue)

Fair play beating Saints at home in the SL SF.

Re: Charnley : Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:12 am  

Wires71 wrote:

I don't think we can take much comfort from beating the following to get to Wembley.

Oldham (Away)
Widnes (Home)
Wakefile (Neutral Venue)

Fair play beating Saints at home in the SL SF.

Saints too were poor too. Not such a big thing really.

Re: Charnley : Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:27 am  

An interesting philosophical divide between those who think the team did well to get where it did (greater than the sum of its parts)., and those who see only failure. I do think that season almost broke Hill.

Re: Charnley : Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:39 am  

rubber duckie wrote:

By position and finals debut it was pound for pound arguably the greatest season for TS.
....but my point is I can't remember such a disappointing season than 2016.
It's like we never earned anything and it's like without the Sandow early season form, we'd have struggled.
It's not easy for me to give an argument when the stats prove greatness...but inside you know everything that year was flawed and just wrong. It's like peeing in the wind, you might not see it but your covered in it!
....and it's like something inside was telling me 2017 is going to be trouble unless we buy 2 props.

100% agree (apart from 2016 being the greatest season for TS - I'd go 2012 ).

2016 was definitely the most disappointing season. 5th & 6th in the league following our spine being ripped out and rebuilt, having never quite got over the line for the Big One, Sandow, Gidley + co brought some optimism that there was some light at the end of the tunnel, the transition seasons were coming to an end, and we were once again going to be competitive.

I would have been less disappointed with a LLS and 2 semi defeats. But to get the LLS, and be in both finals, losing to Hull by a matter of inches, and against a poor Wigan side, was the most galling.

The earlier GF's, particularly 2012, while disappointing, you knew we'd be capable of getting back there soon.

In 2016, as you rightly say - inside you knew everything that year was flawed - there were too many papered over cracks. Walking back from OT through an empty Stretford, listening to the fireworks, I knew that was a bang or bust game. We would be in for more pain before we could consider getting close to that again.

Re: Charnley : Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:41 am  

Captain Hook wrote:

An interesting philosophical divide between those who think the team did well to get where it did (greater than the sum of its parts)., and those who see only failure. I do think that season almost broke Hill.

Good analogy.
Like 2016 was trying to syphon off the remnants of the home brew without disturbing the dregs at the bottom, successfully not getting those dregs, but you can see the drink is getting cloudier and the taste is bitter, not sweet ...knowing if you didn't brew a new barrel in 2017 for the next glass, you're only gonna get sediment no matter how much you try a filter every drop.

Re: Charnley : Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:23 am  

Captain Hook wrote:

An interesting philosophical divide between those who think the team did well to get where it did (greater than the sum of its parts)., and those who see only failure. I do think that season almost broke Hill.

It's interesting as on this forum last year 2016 was cited as "successful" due to the LLS and Finals (usually on Smith Out threads). But I think "did well with what it had" is probably fair and it seems collective views are coming round to that.

Given the backdrop to 2018 I would call a Top 4 finish successful for this year. I was expecting mid table.

I think Smiths best season was 2011, we should have won SL that year. Winning 22 of 27 games and scoring 220 points more than the closest rival. We were head and shoulders the best team that year.

Re: Charnley : Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:09 pm  

Jimathay wrote:

In 2016, as you rightly say - inside you knew everything that year was flawed - there were too many papered over cracks. Walking back from OT through an empty Stretford, listening to the fireworks, I knew that was a bang or bust game. We would be in for more pain before we could consider getting close to that again.

Couldn't have described my own feelings any better... For me, as much as I was thankful for what Smith had done for us, this was the moment of clarity in the 'Smith can do no wrong' giddiness. He'd had a good run, but had clearly taken us as far as he could and I felt that we were just never going top get that monkey off our back without a whole new era under a different regime.

Re: Charnley : Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:35 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

It's interesting as on this forum last year 2016 was cited as "successful" due to the LLS and Finals (usually on Smith Out threads). But I think "did well with what it had" is probably fair and it seems collective views are coming round to that.

I think its reasonable to criticise Smith for his recruitment up to that point, if you are taking the view of "did well with what he had available", as he signed it all.

But given the comments here about the general standard of SL being so poor by 2016 it begs the question, what could anybody have done in terms of recruitment, there was just a general downturn in quality.

In fact, perhaps TS had assembled the best squad in SL by 2016?

Which clubs in 2016 had stronger squads than us? The only one I can think of is Leeds who were completely garbage that year.
Anybody else?

Re: Charnley : Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:12 pm  

sally cinnamon wrote:

I think its reasonable to criticise Smith for his recruitment up to that point, if you are taking the view of "did well with what he had available", as he signed it all.

But given the comments here about the general standard of SL being so poor by 2016 it begs the question, what could anybody have done in terms of recruitment, there was just a general downturn in quality.

In fact, perhaps TS had assembled the best squad in SL by 2016?

Which clubs in 2016 had stronger squads than us? The only one I can think of is Leeds who were completely garbage that year.
Anybody else?

Dunno really how you can answer other than Leeds and Hull. It was pretty much a season where so many teams had lists of injured players and teams were beating teams and no form lines could be took...
Eddie took glee from saying that the middle 8s and salary cap have worked....not me it was just one shat season.
TS reluctance to recruit big after 2016 and not have to foresight to see Sandow wasn't coming back. Who honesty was naive enough to think he was...oh yes I just said who!

Re: Charnley : Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:01 am  

sally cinnamon wrote:

I think its reasonable to criticise Smith for his recruitment up to that point, if you are taking the view of "did well with what he had available", as he signed it all.

But given the comments here about the general standard of SL being so poor by 2016 it begs the question, what could anybody have done in terms of recruitment, there was just a general downturn in quality.

In fact, perhaps TS had assembled the best squad in SL by 2016?

Which clubs in 2016 had stronger squads than us? The only one I can think of is Leeds who were completely garbage that year.
Anybody else?

Are we forgetting this supposed 2nd best squad in SL contained the likes of ...

Russell
George King
Rhys Evans
Laithwaite
Wilde
Cox
Wheeler
Ormsby
Bailey

We end up playing Gidley (signed as full back) in the halves. Russell (signed as winger) at Full back.

One thing that stands out that a squad of 33 is rediculously large to fit under a cap. What with paying Gidley a kings randsom, Clark, Hill and Lineham on good money no wonder we packed up the rest of the side with dross.

He made a pigs ear of the recruitment alright.