[Uncle Rico]

Re: The man most likely to ..... : Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:45 pm  

Wires71 wrote: For good or bad we do rely on it. As for "chance to have a good run of games" 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Warr ... ves_season O'Brien - 19 games Philbin - 16 George King - 19 Patton - 9 Wilde - 7 Hardly starved of the chance to sink or swim. For one reason or another, we probably over relied on these lads in 2015 and whilst we had a disappointing season and although O'Brien was moved on to sink or swim elsewhere, I don't think that it can be laid at their collective doors. I would think that in 2016 they were a year older, we recruited better and had their game time balance a bit better, maybe Philbin and Wilde were under exposed in comparison to what might deemed to be a 'normal' assessment year as far as the fans are concerned? 2017 should be a more accurate year as to who's sinking, or swimming I wish it would hurry up!!

Wires71 wrote: For good or bad we do rely on it. As for "chance to have a good run of games" 2015 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Warr ... ves_season O'Brien - 19 games Philbin - 16 George King - 19 Patton - 9 Wilde - 7 Hardly starved of the chance to sink or swim. For one reason or another, we probably over relied on these lads in 2015 and whilst we had a disappointing season and although O'Brien was moved on to sink or swim elsewhere, I don't think that it can be laid at their collective doors. I would think that in 2016 they were a year older, we recruited better and had their game time balance a bit better, maybe Philbin and Wilde were under exposed in comparison to what might deemed to be a 'normal' assessment year as far as the fans are concerned? 2017 should be a more accurate year as to who's sinking, or swimming I wish it would hurry up!!

Re: The man most likely to ..... : Fri Jan 13, 2017 6:16 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

Winslade's Offload wrote:

I think if you look at any sport 'pyramid' you will find exactly the same situation. In order to get to SL standard you are looking at that small triangular bit at the very tip. For Wire as a top four side, the triangle is even smaller than that. So it's not surprising that most of our scholarship intake doesn't make it through to become Warrington players.
But if you are an Academy coach at a SL club do you start with the attitude that the 'future is not bright' ? How do you summon the enthusiasm to inspire your charges such that they reach their potential if you start out with negative thoughts ? If you are a teacher in a secondary school can you afford to think 'none of this lot are going to amount to much'. Even worse for an inner city school with a catchment encompassing a deprived area, where you have to re-define the meaning of a successful outcome for your pupils. When she visits her local sports club does Jessica Ennis start by telling her eager young athletes that they only have a thousand to one chance of even going to the Olympics ?

I think if you start out with negative thoughts in any type of job / sport / project, you are doomed to failure. The people that inspire us are those who overcome adversity to achieve their goals and who have the boundless enthusiasm that they can pass on to others. If we are realistic, the stats for our current crop of youngsters are not good - only 2 are likely to make SL from the scholarship intake, that probably means only one for our requirements. But you surely have to be optimistic that we are going to unearth an England standard player, or perhaps 3 high quality 1st 17 from the same year - or whatever floats your boat. Otherwise we will end up with little enthusiasm for anything in life, apart from running a nice hot bath and reaching for the razor blade packet - only to find of course, that somebody else has used the last one.

I made no comment on the approach of academy coaches or how to motivate and inspire young people. Just commenting on the likelihood of players breaking though to be top SL players from the current Warrington setup to counter the hyperbole. More than likely we will rely on signing young players from other clubs again like we did this year .

But again, why? I showed an article which had six local players from a dominant local amateur side with five international standard players from two years ago. None of which have been offered full time terms whilst players have been brought in from other clubs above them and typically on far better terms.

I can guarantee that some of them should have progressed as the ability was/is there.

The whole idea of working in the community is to provide a pathway for local players.

Re: The man most likely to ..... : Fri Jan 13, 2017 7:39 pm  

mark_m wrote:

But again, why? I showed an article which had six local players from a dominant local amateur side with five international standard players from two years ago. None of which have been offered full time terms whilst players have been brought in from other clubs above them and typically on far better terms.

I can guarantee that some of them should have progressed as the ability was/is there.

The whole idea of working in the community is to provide a pathway for local players.

It's a good question.

Re: The man most likely to ..... : Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:41 pm  

Its probably quite simple really, the players brought in are better than the ones let go. The comments form us fans are biased towards our home grown players. Can you imagine how difficult it is to assess a player at 17/18 and decide which one is going to make it to Super League. We are just fans, friends, family etc we are not professionals at this otherwise we would all be employed by the club. Its tough when it gets to Academy >Super League and I would assume that location of player goes out of the window as its also a business.

Re: The man most likely to ..... : Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:27 am  

But... these players were international players which put them in the top twenty best players in the country.

And decisions are being made about a player being good enough at 17/18 hence them being signed in from other clubs on substantial contracts with an automatic promise of a full time contract after twelve months.

It is about time local players got the same treatment and are valued accordingly. Two tier system based on other factors and not because of ability.

Compare and contrast with Wigan and the way the produce SL quality players locally in volume.

Re: The man most likely to ..... : Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:07 pm  

I don't subscribe to the theory that bought in players are treated better than local players. I do believe that there are a number of factors why some fall by the wayside, and they are not all directly to do with how skilful a player is or may well become.

Players are products, they are an investment. And if they are going to produce a return for that investment, they will be signed. If there are factors that may harm that investment, then they shouldn't have the risk taken on them because they are local. The "better the devil you know" mentality is gone, we're in a position to compete for the best, so I think we should.

Junior agegroups go close to predicting who will be in the frame for pro-contracts, but a lot can change between them. Injuries, growth patterns, behavioural patterns, dietary patterns and sometimes players may just become complacent. It's just not an accurate scale to go against, otherwise Pickersgill, Durbin and Bracek would be retiring legends now.

[Winslade's Offload]

Re: The man most likely to ..... : Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:27 pm  

I am a bit surprised Wolf Hall has not contributed to this debate, he made an excellent point on the Wigan board a month or so;

For the latest Academy tour down under, there were 7 youngsters from Wigan. These "Wigan" lads came from Dalton ARLFC, Dalton In Furness, Cumbria; Blackbrook ARL St Helens; Oulton Raiders, Leeds; Stanley Rangers, Wakefield; Seaton Rangers, Workington; Folly Lane, Swinton.

So whilst you have to agree that Wigan do produce a lot of quality players from their locality, they too are 'fishing abroad' when they stock their Academy - and in doing so they will be ignoring / releasing local players who could have taken their place. All clubs do it, even Saints who have a first class set up, poached a quality Widnes lad at the back end of last year. As Barbed Wire points out, it's very competitive out there and clubs will try and lure the best quality juniors into their squads.

Re: The man most likely to ..... : Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:19 pm  

Winslade's Offload wrote:

I am a bit surprised Wolf Hall has not contributed to this debate, he made an excellent point on the Wigan board a month or so;

For the latest Academy tour down under, there were 7 youngsters from Wigan. These "Wigan" lads came from Dalton ARLFC, Dalton In Furness, Cumbria; Blackbrook ARL St Helens; Oulton Raiders, Leeds; Stanley Rangers, Wakefield; Seaton Rangers, Workington; Folly Lane, Swinton.

So whilst you have to agree that Wigan do produce a lot of quality players from their locality, they too are 'fishing abroad' when they stock their Academy - and in doing so they will be ignoring / releasing local players who could have taken their place. All clubs do it, even Saints who have a first class set up, poached a quality Widnes lad at the back end of last year. As Barbed Wire points out, it's very competitive out there and clubs will try and lure the best quality juniors into their squads.

Imagine you were a top youngster and had the choice of Wigan, Saints, Leeds or Warrington. Unless there was significant incentive I doubt Warrington would come top of the choices.

Re: The man most likely to ..... : Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:40 pm  

OK, I'll bite WO. I believe Savelio will do well for us this coming season. He may blossom under a different coaching environment than he had at St Helens, and he seemed to go well for Cas under changed circumstances at the end of last year. Toby King has the making of a top class centre also, in my opinion. Declan Patton will improve, if he gets the game time.
As far a young talent coming through, I am not close to the recruitment processes and people, coaching and contracts offered to young players.
For example, do Warrington have a list of types of young players they want, eg 4 props, 2 wingers etc etc or just look for good talent whatever position?
Who does the scouting, do they cover geographical areas, how plugged into local teams etc are they?
What do they offer young players to attract them down to Warrington, how does this compare with other teams. If a young player doesn't sign for Warrington, why do we lose them? For example, 3 young lads who played for Warrington local clubs, Rylands and Woolston are part of the Saints Scholarship programme. Did we rule them out or were they not interested? If they weren't interested, do the club know why and perhaps learn lessons for the future? Hopefully...
I believe also that the young players at one of our biggest rivals locally pay their young players a lot more than Warrington do. (Not idle gossip by the way) We can argue whether this is the right thing to do or not. Also some young players we have signed from opposition clubs may be paid more money than our own local lads to attract them here.
For me, the objective should be a mixed programme of local lads ( and get in first, we should have our own local good young lads fighting to get in here) plus good scouting of young players, with the best coaching staff recruiting against a plan for taking the club forward on a rolling 10 year programme. And the rewards for those who join us should reflect the go ahead club Warrington should be.
But what do I know?

Re: The man most likely to ..... : Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:49 pm  

Wires71 wrote:

Imagine you were a top youngster and had the choice of Wigan, Saints, Leeds or Warrington. Unless there was significant incentive I doubt Warrington would come top of the choices.

Not sure why... Wire have been established in the top club's for long enough now that the chance of trophies can be considered comparable... Leeds has big city appeal fair enough... But what exactly do does St Helens/Wigan have?