Re: SL1 + SL2 : Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:07 am  

HXSparky wrote:

Why? What do Toulouse and Toronto actually give to the game other than a bit of international glitz and expensive travel arrangements? Toronto add a bit of interest at the moment (which will wane), but Toulouse are established as a Championship team that needs an expensive flight (all flights are expensive compared to road trips) and accommodation to get to for away teams.

If the away team support is irrelevant, what do each of these teams actually give to the UK RL game in tangible terms?

You say 'International glitz' as if its some glib throwaway benefit, but its actually very important in challenging some of the perceptions that hold this sport back - that we're a sport where big men just barge into each other in poor northern ex-pit villages.

Clubs like Toulouse and the proposed North American teams represent opportunities to change those perceptions and sell something different to the public, to broadcasters and commercial partners.

Whether the sport takes those opportunities is another question entirely, but the cost of a few flights is, in my view, an opportunity cost worth paying. European travel, at the every least, is common across pretty much all professional sports and given that we regularly see SL clubs flying out to the Canaries for warm weather training, I don't think it's a cost we can't bear.

Re: SL1 + SL2 : Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:30 am  

bramleyrhino wrote:

You say 'International glitz' as if its some glib throwaway benefit, but its actually very important in challenging some of the perceptions that hold this sport back - that we're a sport where big men just barge into each other in poor northern ex-pit villages.

Clubs like Toulouse and the proposed North American teams represent opportunities to change those perceptions and sell something different to the public, to broadcasters and commercial partners.

Whether the sport takes those opportunities is another question entirely, but the cost of a few flights is, in my view, an opportunity cost worth paying. European travel, at the every least, is common across pretty much all professional sports and given that we regularly see SL clubs flying out to the Canaries for warm weather training, I don't think it's a cost we can't bear.

Who has this perception? I've done a lot of work down south and in particular London and this isn't the perception I encountered once. The perception I got more was that club scene was pretty strong and in comparison with union - but international scene was non existent. Pretty accurate really. Plenty of people I spoke to acknowledged that the skill level is high and it's an exciting game.

I believe genuinely that the biggest detriment to our success is internally we do not believe we can be as big a sport as we want to be, and that our own parochial views hold us way back more. It's like we don't want to attract big sponsors and push the boat out no the basis we already think that they believe we are a northern pit town sport when in fact that is not the case, but we accept it and then give our sponsorship away for pittance.

Re: SL1 + SL2 : Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:33 am  

HXSparky wrote:

Why? What do Toulouse and Toronto actually give to the game other than a bit of international glitz and expensive travel arrangements? Toronto add a bit of interest at the moment (which will wane), but Toulouse are established as a Championship team that needs an expensive flight (all flights are expensive compared to road trips) and accommodation to get to for away teams.

If the away team support is irrelevant, what do each of these teams actually give to the UK RL game in tangible terms?

Regarding Toronto & Toulouse.
Either stick them in the top flight and take whatever benefit there is in having additional overseas sides in "our" comp or, get rid completely.
I still dont know whether there are any major benefits in having them (in terms of profile, exposure increasing sponsorship & increasing revenue etc). However, there is sure as hell no benefit in having them in the lower leagues.
Cant argue about increased costs etc and these are, relatively speaking, far higher in the Championship, where the visiting clubs are less able to afford the additional expense.
IF they are needed in the comp, it makes sense to have them in SL, if not, well, they should never have been invited to join.

Regarding what they give to the UK in tangible terms, this will only be measured in future years and maybe we will se a huge increased TV deal
As I said, i'm not convinced but there is only one way to find out.

Re: SL1 + SL2 : Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:42 am  

bramleyrhino wrote:

You say 'International glitz' as if its some glib throwaway benefit, but its actually very important in challenging some of the perceptions that hold this sport back - that we're a sport where big men just barge into each other in poor northern ex-pit villages.

Clubs like Toulouse and the proposed North American teams represent opportunities to change those perceptions and sell something different to the public, to broadcasters and commercial partners.

Whether the sport takes those opportunities is another question entirely, but the cost of a few flights is, in my view, an opportunity cost worth paying. European travel, at the every least, is common across pretty much all professional sports and given that we regularly see SL clubs flying out to the Canaries for warm weather training, I don't think it's a cost we can't bear.

You and your stereotypes. We're a poor northern ex-fishing village I'll have you know.

Re: SL1 + SL2 : Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:55 am  

mean_machine wrote:

Who has this perception? I've done a lot of work down south and in particular London and this isn't the perception I encountered once. The perception I got more was that club scene was pretty strong and in comparison with union - but international scene was non existent. Pretty accurate really. Plenty of people I spoke to acknowledged that the skill level is high and it's an exciting game.

I believe genuinely that the biggest detriment to our success is internally we do not believe we can be as big a sport as we want to be, and that our own parochial views hold us way back more. It's like we don't want to attract big sponsors and push the boat out no the basis we already think that they believe we are a northern pit town sport when in fact that is not the case, but we accept it and then give our sponsorship away for pittance.

That perception is certainly there in the commercial world and, on many of the metrics that advertisers consider when looking to push their message, the RL audience scores poorly - this like MOSAIC profiling, average household incomes, etc. That's not going to change without some form of expansion.

The advertising world has changed since the Internet era. It has become very cheap to reach the audience that we speak to. Facebook means that I could set up an ad in 15 minutes and put it in front of 4,000 people in Widnes for less than £200 (and I'd get the data from those people I reach). When it comes to sponsorship, that's what the sport is competing against now - not Union or Football, but Google and Facebook. One of the reasons we're so appealing to bookies and pay day loan firms is because they're still somewhat excluded from those cheaper platforms. The only way to tackle that is to reach an audience that is worth more (and so advertisers are willing to pay more) and harder to reach. Those audiences are usually in big cities.

I think you're right in that people can appreciate the skill, but we don't portray that very well. Too few of our players are properly media trained, with a handful of notable exceptions they aren't eloquent in front of a camera in the same way that players in other sports are, and it supports that 'thick northern lads' image irrespective of how skillful they are.

I also agree with you that the sport holds itself back, almost fearful of success, although I'd argue that's more an issue at club level.

Re: SL1 + SL2 : Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:21 am  

bramleyrhino wrote:

You say 'International glitz' as if its some glib throwaway benefit, but its actually very important in challenging some of the perceptions that hold this sport back - that we're a sport where big men just barge into each other in poor northern ex-pit villages.

Clubs like Toulouse and the proposed North American teams represent opportunities to change those perceptions and sell something different to the public, to broadcasters and commercial partners.

Whether the sport takes those opportunities is another question entirely, but the cost of a few flights is, in my view, an opportunity cost worth paying. European travel, at the every least, is common across pretty much all professional sports and given that we regularly see SL clubs flying out to the Canaries for warm weather training, I don't think it's a cost we can't bear.

The other side of the coin though is thats its not a perception, when people see Toronto full of ex pit village UK players and OZ/NZ rejects the reality is thats its a Deception. Grass roots need to be put in place so that they can grow progressively, its no good throwing them into the top end they will wither and struggle for identity with its fan base.

Do we really want to be a nomadic global sport all on the basis that it looks good. By all means we can promote the sport to other countries but giving them a place at the top table is fundamentally fallacious.

Re: SL1 + SL2 : Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:35 am  

Judder Man wrote:

The other side of the coin though is thats its not a perception, when people see Toronto full of ex pit village UK players and OZ/NZ rejects the reality is thats its a Deception. Grass roots need to be put in place so that they can grow progressively, its no good throwing them into the top end they will wither and struggle for identity with its fan base.

Do we really want to be a nomadic global sport all on the basis that it looks good. By all means we can promote the sport to other countries but giving them a place at the top table is fundamentally fallacious.

I think on that one you're looking for an issue where there isn't one there. Owen Farrell is from the same poor Northern ex pit village as Joel Tompkins, but one gets global endorsement deals and the other spends his spare time abusing bar staff in Wigan.

Pro sport is many things and one of those things is a form of advertising. What matters is not who is wearing the sandwich board, but where that sandwich board is and who is looking at it.

Toronto and North America represents a risk, but the bigger risk is hoping that we can keep doing what we're doing and that things will change.

Re: SL1 + SL2 : Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:30 am  

Judder Man wrote:

Your club has voted for it. Barwick and Rimmer can,t run Superleague they don’t have the dynamics to increase the image profile of our game.
There is still a lot of deadwood in RFL, marketing and sponsor values of our game are atrocious.
The game needs a fresh approach, Barwick just doesn’t do anything at all for our sport and Rimmer can’t view things from the right perspective. Hethrington will lose influence hence the dummy spat.

People going on about Hetherington having a dummy spit but it was the 3 owners (and others) that have clearly had a dummy spit because they've come out with this announcement when talks are still ongoing and they haven't got their way yet.

Thing is if Leeds and GH wanted to look after themselves they'd have been sat right there next to the other owners. If the objective is of giving more money to SL clubs how does that hurt Leeds? They'd do as well out of as any of the big clubs especially with the new stadium work (which more money would help us pay for even better)

People go on about Leeds getting their way currently but what is it currently that is giving us an advantage over others especially the big clubs that we wouldn't have if things went the way those owners want it to go?

Re: SL1 + SL2 : Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:31 am  

bramleyrhino wrote:

You say 'International glitz' as if its some glib throwaway benefit, but its actually very important in challenging some of the perceptions that hold this sport back - that we're a sport where big men just barge into each other in poor northern ex-pit villages.

WHAT....LIKE GRIDIRON.....jesus wept.....when will anyone see that the EMPEROR IS NAKED?

Re: SL1 + SL2 : Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:39 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Regarding Toronto & Toulouse.
Either stick them in the top flight and take whatever benefit there is in having additional overseas sides in "our" comp or, get rid completely.
I still dont know whether there are any major benefits in having them (in terms of profile, exposure increasing sponsorship & increasing revenue etc). However, there is sure as hell no benefit in having them in the lower leagues.
Cant argue about increased costs etc and these are, relatively speaking, far higher in the Championship, where the visiting clubs are less able to afford the additional expense.
IF they are needed in the comp, it makes sense to have them in SL, if not, well, they should never have been invited to join.

Regarding what they give to the UK in tangible terms, this will only be measured in future years and maybe we will se a huge increased TV deal
As I said, i'm not convinced but there is only one way to find out.

All we are asking for is to give us a FAIR chance...let us have a go...we are more than up to the task! More than up to it AND SO MUCH MORE!