Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:51 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

I wasn't "supposing" which is what the rest of your response was. I simply quoted a fact....2,200+ fewer fans attended leigh v Batley than attended Toronto's visit.....I can "suppose" that the crowds/interest may drop of, but for now, it hasn't!
Leigh took 45k less on the gate this week as opposed to last.....and their gate v Toronto was bigger than the gate they got for the visit of Wakefield last year in the the top flight....which was their lowest gate that year........lower than the visit of Catalan?

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Mon Feb 12, 2018 12:23 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

However, if, on the other hand, they become average or, easybeats (like Catalan ), the curiosity factor would disappear and they would lose their "appeal" and attendances would drop when they came over.

2017 Lowest gates for each club in the regular season:
Leigh v Wakefield
Salford v Wakefield
Castleford v Salford
Warrington v Wakefield
St Helens v Wakefield
Wigan v Catalans
Leeds v Huddersfield
Huddersfield v Catalans
Wakefield v Catalans
Hull FC v Leigh
Widnes v Catalans

so....4 sides from 11 saw their lowest gate from Catalans and 4 sides saw Wakefield as a "lesser draw"....all though it would seem that the Penninies may be to blame as much as the Channel!!

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:04 am  

Call Me God wrote:

Leigh... 5,452 last week when they hosted Toronto Wolfpack and 3,216 this week for the visit of Batley, an hours drive away!

And???

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:59 am  

Cokey wrote:

And???

It would seem that another nail has been hammered in the oft used "away fan" stance in rejecting anyone outside of a local bus route when discussing new teams.
I have an increasing feeling that Toronto are all smoke and mirrors and that the "backers" are hanging out for the SKY TV money to cover their costs, but I refute any claim that away fans are a factor in selecting teams to join comp.....away fans are an added bonus and those clubs that rely on them deserve to fail.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:47 am  

Budgiezilla wrote:

Batley brought about 30 fans....same as Salford at Wakefield the other night.

Bit harsh that Budgiezilla. With 15 minutes to kick off I counted 91 fans in the Salford end. So by kick off I would say they were above 100.

In all fairness to Salford they are generally a lower attendance club and the game was on a Friday night, televised and with a silly kick off time. I think it was a reasonable turnout for them. Had the game being on a Sunday afternoon I would anticipate significantly more away fans since there is less "excuse" not to attend, apart from "can't be bothered".

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:58 am  

Call Me God wrote:

It would seem that another nail has been hammered in the oft used "away fan" stance in rejecting anyone outside of a local bus route when discussing new teams.
I have an increasing feeling that Toronto are all smoke and mirrors and that the "backers" are hanging out for the SKY TV money to cover their costs, but I refute any claim that away fans are a factor in selecting teams to join comp.....away fans are an added bonus and those clubs that rely on them deserve to fail.

Fully agree, and I've said the same many, many times the past 18 months or so (usually in response to anti-Toronto posts).

It's the weakest argument in the locker. Away fans are a nice bonus, but as you say shouldn't be relied upon. It's an argument used by fans of clubs that have bumbled along for decades, holding back the top clubs, not adapting or innovating, not creating or improving their own revenue streams.

That's why they're nervous. They see innovation coming over from the Atlantic, the ability to market to a brand new audience, the ability to sell the dream to outside investors who've never seen a game and the ability to forge landmark sponsorship deals.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:24 am  

DGM wrote:

Fully agree, and I've said the same many, many times the past 18 months or so (usually in response to anti-Toronto posts).

It's the weakest argument in the locker. Away fans are a nice bonus, but as you say shouldn't be relied upon. It's an argument used by fans of clubs that have bumbled along for decades, holding back the top clubs, not adapting or innovating, not creating or improving their own revenue streams.

That's why they're nervous. They see innovation coming over from the Atlantic, the ability to market to a brand new audience, the ability to sell the dream to outside investors who've never seen a game and the ability to forge landmark sponsorship deals.

In fairness, my response was in relation to Toronto helping generate larger crowds, which I agreed was the case in League 1 (due to their star studded team, plying against part timers) and I was trying to make the point that this wont always be the case.
Indeed, IF they gain promotion to the top flight, they will become "the same" as the other 12 clubs, assuming that they have to abide by the same salary cap, and wont be responsible for clubs achieving their highest attendance figures, which HAS been the case in League 1.
I do hope this is clear and I do AGREE that clubs are responsible for generating their own home attendances.

Also, I really dont agree that any of the smaller clubs are holding anyone back, surely if these clubs are under performing, they will be "easy beats".

Everything in life goes in cycles and sport should be about on field performance, if not, it becomes contrived, some may say fixed, at which point, it is no longer sport.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:41 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Also, I really dont agree that any of the smaller clubs are holding anyone back, surely if these clubs are under performing, they will be "easy beats".

A prime example is the Salary Cap. It's gone backwards vs Inflation over the past 15 years or so, and alarmingly backwards compared to the NRL & Union. This is because we don't have enough clubs that generate the required revenue levels to enable us to raise the cap, those clubs have stood still year after year, and therefore other clubs are held back to a pitiful c£1.8m salary cap.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:47 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Also, I really dont agree that any of the smaller clubs are holding anyone back, surely if these clubs are under performing, they will be "easy beats".

It has been a process that has been going on over the course of the last 20 years.

The salary cap is around £1m less in real terms than it was in 1999. That is due to the way that the clubs have voted and, in general, the trend has been for the smaller clubs to vote against increases to the salary cap (even inflation-linked increases), citing cost pressures as the main reason.

So what we have are a group of clubs that have grown their revenue streams, that have worked to increase commercial revenues, ticketing revenues, have invested in ecommerce, have invested in generating non-matchday revenue, have invested in the matchday experience and have invested in facilities and talent development. But those clubs limited in how they can divert the fruits of that investment onto the on-field product due to essentially being handicapped in terms of which talent they can attract and retain, because that talent is being paid less in real terms than it was nearly 20 years ago.

Meanwhile, we have another group of clubs that have managed to 'close the gap' on the top clubs not by doing some or all of those things that the other group are doing, but instead by voting in a way that makes it harder for the top clubs to attract top talent from overseas, and/or to retain the talent that they've already got and have developed themselves.

I know its a contencious issue for some when people say that standards in Super League have slipped (I personally think that they have), but the reason why this debate about expansion and globalisation keeps cropping up is because we have a group of club chairmen that no longer want to run at the pace of the slowest man. They want to grow their clubs, they want to grow their audience, they want to grow revenues, and they don't want to be hamstrung by clubs who vote in particular ways either because they can't keep up, or because its easier/cheaper to keep the bigger clubs on a leash.

This isn't an issue of ditching clubs because their face doesn't fit or because they're unfashionable. This issue is the result of 20 years of clubs not making an equal contribution to the development of the sport, and simply using a couple of hundred "away fans" as a justification for their right at the top table. If more clubs brought more to the table, this debate wouldn't even exist.

Re: Lenagan predicts Catalans, Toulouse. Toronto, New York i : Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:50 am  

bramleyrhino wrote:

It has been a process that has been going on over the course of the last 20 years.

The salary cap is around £1m less in real terms than it was in 1999. That is due to the way that the clubs have voted and, in general, the trend has been for the smaller clubs to vote against increases to the salary cap (even inflation-linked increases), citing cost pressures as the main reason.

So what we have are a group of clubs that have grown their revenue streams, that have worked to increase commercial revenues, ticketing revenues, have invested in ecommerce, have invested in generating non-matchday revenue, have invested in the matchday experience and have invested in facilities and talent development. But those clubs limited in how they can divert the fruits of that investment onto the on-field product due to essentially being handicapped in terms of which talent they can attract and retain, because that talent is being paid less in real terms than it was nearly 20 years ago.

Meanwhile, we have another group of clubs that have managed to 'close the gap' on the top clubs not by doing some or all of those things that the other group are doing, but instead by voting in a way that makes it harder for the top clubs to attract top talent from overseas, and/or to retain the talent that they've already got and have developed themselves.

I know its a contencious issue for some when people say that standards in Super League have slipped (I personally think that they have), but the reason why this debate about expansion and globalisation keeps cropping up is because we have a group of club chairmen that no longer want to run at the pace of the slowest man. They want to grow their clubs, they want to grow their audience, they want to grow revenues, and they don't want to be hamstrung by clubs who vote in particular ways either because they can't keep up, or because its easier/cheaper to keep the bigger clubs on a leash.

This isn't an issue of ditching clubs because their face doesn't fit or because they're unfashionable. This issue is the result of 20 years of clubs not making an equal contribution to the development of the sport, and simply using a couple of hundred "away fans" as a justification for their right at the top table. If more clubs brought more to the table, this debate wouldn't even exist.

Nailed it.