[Bullseye]

Re: Should British rugby league have its own Immortals group : Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:29 pm  

Erik the not red wrote:

Well Shaun Edwards shouldn't be in it either for the same reasons as Sinfield - lack of international respect. In this case we are talking the greatest ever players and the one's our fake Frenchman listed were just that and all better than Sinfield in the wider sense of the game. Now if you were doing a Super League Hall of Fame or Immortal list then Sinfield unquestionably goes there, probably in 1st place - but we aren't.

And I think you are the one mythologising Sinfield's international performance's. No horror shows granted but by the same token no much talked about MOM efforts either. And then you say Hanley's international efforts were modest.

Sinfield's most famous international moment is missing Shaun Johnson - that's a bit unfair on him as he's better than that, but he was certainly no star in the international arena.

I sort of agree but Edwards had a better international career than Sinfield. Like Sinfield he was a winner against the Aussies once (I'll not count the game he was sent off) but he was largely responsible for us beating NZ in 1989 over here. How many wins versus Australia and NZ can Sinfield boast? Being in a winning side versus the likes of Wales and France does not make for a good international career IMO.

I think Edwards is in because he has more winners medals than anyone else and it's down to his club career. I think to get in the Hall of Fame you need to excel at both club and international level really unless you do something so amazing as to transcend those criteria like Rosenfeld or Bevan. Edwards doesn't really so shouldn't be in IMO, like Sinfield.

[Bullseye]

Re: Should British rugby league have its own Immortals group : Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:34 pm  

Bulls Boy 2011 wrote:

In terms of international respect then we would be lacking a hell of a lot of players from the 90's up until the present day.

Danny McGuire. Record SL try scorer, 8 time SL winner, 3 time WCC winner, 2 time CC winner. 100% deserves a place in the Hall of Fame. International career wasn't great, kept out by Pryce and Long and later by Eastmond/Tomkins and Widdop/Smith/Williams/Chase.

Paul Sculthorpe. 1 of only 3 players to win 2+ Man Of Steel Awards, only one to do it back to back. Numerous CC wins. Inspirational to that Saints team. MBE. Won nothing Internationally. Still deserves a place in the Hall of Fame.

Kevin Sinfield. Along with McGuire and Peacock the most obvious choice for a Hall of Fame spot. Over 500 first team games (very rare in this day and age). Record SL point scorer. Record Leeds point scorer. Captained his team to 7 SL wins, 3 WCC wins, 2 CC wins, 2 time Harry Sunderland winner, 1 Lance Todd Trophy winner, Golden Boot winner, MBE, First to captain a team to 3 back to back SL titles. People say he hasn't done anything internationally? Neither has any English player for 20 years. Yet is England's record point scorer.

Those would be my three candidates and obviously Peacock speaks for himself. So four candidates for the Hall of Fame. Those are the best we have had in a long time. Andy Farrell would probably be among these as well.

Underneath that for me you have your Kieron Cunningham, Paul Wellens, Sean Long, Paul Deacon, Robbie Paul, Lesley Vainikolo's. All of who would have an argument to be included too. Probably missing some more like.

None of them should be in the Hall of Fame. They were great players but didn't hit the heights of the likes of Boston, Risman, Bevan etc.

There's no need to put players in the Hall of Fame for the sake of it. It should be special. I like the idea that a player has to be retired for at least 10 years before he is considered since it allows time for people to take stock and put careers into context. Lots of very good players aren't in it from eras when the game wasn't as strong. Take the 70s. Only Millward and Reilly get in from that decade.

Re: Should British rugby league have its own Immortals group : Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:59 pm  

Bullseye wrote:

None of them should be in the Hall of Fame. They were great players but didn't hit the heights of the likes of Boston, Risman, Bevan etc.

There's no need to put players in the Hall of Fame for the sake of it. It should be special. I like the idea that a player has to be retired for at least 10 years before he is considered since it allows time for people to take stock and put careers into context. Lots of very good players aren't in it from eras when the game wasn't as strong. Take the 70s. Only Millward and Reilly get in from that decade.

I just don't understand the obsession with the international aspect of getting into the Hall of Fame. Certain players okay, I accept should be in based on their feats at international level. But the Hall of Fame should not be subject specifically to international success. Danny McGuire, Jamie Peacock and Kevin Sinfield must get in, purely for their feats at club level. In a world of a fully professional league try scoring has become a lot harder, it's not as if they are up against blokes who have come in from work like the Wigan team of the late 80's early 90's were.

These blokes, especially McGuire and Peacock, hve won more Championships than that all conquering Wigan side even though it's probably harder for them now than for Wigan back then. It is also very hard to compare international standards from back then to now. Back then it was a lot more competitive between GB and the Aussies, whether that was because everything was part time or what not. The special players who have done it at club AND international level should be in their own 'Immortals' type group.

The Australian Hall of Fame contains 30 players worthy of being in a Hall of Fame. Not all of them deserve to be Immortals though. And that may be the same for the likes of McGuire etc. Hall of Fame worthy but not 'Immortals' worthy with the likes of Boston, Beven etc.

Re: Should British rugby league have its own Immortals group : Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:11 pm  

Too young to remember the likes of Boston, Risman et al. No doubting that they're hero worshipped by those who are but then again crapping in an outhouse is probably remembered with fondness too

It is nigh on impossible to make the case that players from one era were better than those from another.

Re: Should British rugby league have its own Immortals group : Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:17 pm  

Not that the great KC is much better, but the only thing I can ever remember sinfield doing in an international is making a play an under7 year old would do when he shot out of the line so that Johnson could skip around him in first gear. If anyone else has any memories about Sinfield at international level, for him to warrant being named in esteemed company please share, because I have none

Regards

King James

Re: Should British rugby league have its own Immortals group : Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:45 pm  

Having an immortals group can only be a positive thing for Rugby League in this country

Re: Should British rugby league have its own Immortals group : Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:15 am  

I don't have a problem with a player being a club hall of famer/immortal and not being considered an all-time great of the game as a whole. Sinfield is in many ways like a couple of his Leeds predecessors Lewis Jones and John Holmes. All of them are rightly club legends, but its hard to make a case for any of them being in a British Hall of Fame, which should be exclusive to those with an impact beyond their club. Of those three Sinfield would have the strongest case when we look back in a decade or so, and maybe people will decide his record for England wasn't that bad.

Just on international performances, you do have to consider the overall context. Hanley, Schofield and Offiah played in an era when whilst not beating Australia regularly, we were capable of competing with them. By contrast GB and England were awful from the time we started losing players back to RU until relatively recently when we have started to get close (but again no cigar). The GB teams I saw embarrassingly smashed by Australia in Brisbane would still have been smashed if you put Hanley and Schofield in them, as the general gap was just enormous. The problem wasn't one or two star players but the gulf in class across the 17 as a group.

Re: Should British rugby league have its own Immortals group : Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:59 am  

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

I don't have a problem with a player being a club hall of famer/immortal and not being considered an all-time great of the game as a whole. Sinfield is in many ways like a couple of his Leeds predecessors Lewis Jones and John Holmes. All of them are rightly club legends, but its hard to make a case for any of them being in a British Hall of Fame, which should be exclusive to those with an impact beyond their club. Of those three Sinfield would have the strongest case when we look back in a decade or so, and maybe people will decide his record for England wasn't that bad.

Just on international performances, you do have to consider the overall context. Hanley, Schofield and Offiah played in an era when whilst not beating Australia regularly, we were capable of competing with them. By contrast GB and England were awful from the time we started losing players back to RU until relatively recently when we have started to get close (but again no cigar). The GB teams I saw embarrassingly smashed by Australia in Brisbane would still have been smashed if you put Hanley and Schofield in them, as the general gap was just enormous. The problem wasn't one or two star players but the gulf in class across the 17 as a group.

Lewis jones is all ready in the hall if fame, so maybe check your facts. Holmes yes probably only a leeds great, but played in world cup and ashes winning teams so by most people's definition should be in hall of fame.
With regards hanly and Schofield, both played in 2 x easily whitewashed ashes series. So hardly competitive.

There are also plenty of other hall of gamers who played bery small ampinyts if international and had midest international careers, international is not the be all and end all, some are in mostly because of their international career some ate in due to their stella club career.

People can try and play down Sinfield and his itnertaionl career all they like, and wether you agree ir disagree with that is irrelevant, he is an all time great and will be in.

[Bullseye]

Re: Should British rugby league have its own Immortals group : Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:12 am  

rollin thunder wrote:

With regards hanly and Schofield, both played in 2 x easily whitewashed ashes series. So hardly competitive.

What rubbish. Schofield played in 6 ashes series in all. He was involved only 2 whitewashes. He was instrumental in the wins in 1990 and 1992 - the closest we've come in almost 50 years so in fact very competitive actually. Hanley too very competitive in 88 and 90 involved in two wins. You make it sound like they were only involved in sides that got thrashed.

Schofield was also instrumental in our last series win away in NZ (1990) and a drawn home series in 1985.

Schofield's international career is what gets him in the Hall of Fame.

Re: Should British rugby league have its own Immortals group : Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:04 pm  

Bullseye wrote:

What rubbish. Schofield played in 6 ashes series in all. He was involved only 2 whitewashes. He was instrumental in the wins in 1990 and 1992 - the closest we've come in almost 50 years so in fact very competitive actually. Hanley too very competitive in 88 and 90 involved in two wins. You make it sound like they were only involved in sides that got thrashed.

Schofield was also instrumental in our last series win away in NZ (1990) and a drawn home series in 1985.

Schofield's international career is what gets him in the Hall of Fame.

I agree but or virtually all the 1980’’s Gb was not even closevto competing with Australia one win the entire decade. So for the first half od ahanly and Schofields interesting career they were not in competatice teams at international level, and i have stated earlier Schofield in in mirs for his international career whilst Hanley us in more threw is club career.