Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:10 pm  

Was referring more in the past

Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:49 pm  

bramleyrhino wrote:

I don't necessarily disagree, but this idea that any expansion club has to "bring something substantial" to the league, IMO, sets them up to fail and is simply a method for some to say that expansion doesn't / cannot work because not only is this "something substantial" never specified, it's usually completely unattainable. That esspecially the case when people suggest that the only measure of "what a club brings" is away fans - a source of revenue that is only worth around £20 per head per year to each club.

If we're going to start holding Catalans or any other club to certain standards, it's only right that we hold heartland clubs to similar standards - every club should be showing growth, not just the usual handful.

Sorry Bramley but, I disagree here.

IF we are going to "invite" clubs from N.America to compete in a European (UK +1) Competition, there has to be a benefit to the competition and this has to be more than a Brexit style crossed finger sign.

What if, we have the Red Hall "dream" of 3 /4 N. American clubs + 2 FRench clubs and 5/6 English clubs and the thing goes pop ?
Dropping half of the current SL clubs and with little chance of them being invited back, would likely see some of them go out of business and if the North American experiment fails OR is so successful that they want their own league, there would be nothing to come back to.
Also, part of supporting any club is going to watch them play and whilst I fully appreciate that for the "expansion" clubs, away games are not even a possibility (bar an odd one or two).
I think that you will find that over a period of time, many fans will find something else to do with their time.
Maybe they will watch some Championship games or maybe another sport but, it would be a gamble for the sport.
Once the gloss wears off, you will be left with supporters drifting away from the sport and we should be working hard to retain ALL supporters and attract new ones.

The real issue here is that NOBODY is either being open about what the port is trying to achieve.
We just have a possibility that N America may be a new horizon but, can you imagine ANY other sport gambling its future on crossed fingers.

Of course IF there was an established comp over there and someone came along with a sack full of cash, wanting to set up a "Cross Atlantic Super League" this would be huge positive but, the current situation is miles and miles away from this scenario.

They do say "be careful what you wish for".

Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:00 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Sorry Bramley but, I disagree here.

IF we are going to "invite" clubs from N.America to compete in a European (UK +1) Competition, there has to be a benefit to the competition and this has to be more than a Brexit style crossed finger sign.

What if, we have the Red Hall "dream" of 3 /4 N. American clubs + 2 FRench clubs and 5/6 English clubs and the thing goes pop ?
Dropping half of the current SL clubs and with little chance of them being invited back, would likely see some of them go out of business and if the North American experiment fails OR is so successful that they want their own league, there would be nothing to come back to.
Also, part of supporting any club is going to watch them play and whilst I fully appreciate that for the "expansion" clubs, away games are not even a possibility (bar an odd one or two).

Sensible
I think that you will find that over a period of time, many fans will find something else to do with their time.
Maybe they will watch some Championship games or maybe another sport but, it would be a gamble for the sport.
Once the gloss wears off, you will be left with supporters drifting away from the sport and we should be working hard to retain ALL supporters and attract new ones.

The real issue here is that NOBODY is either being open about what the port is trying to achieve.
We just have a possibility that N America may be a new horizon but, can you imagine ANY other sport gambling its future on crossed fingers.

Of course IF there was an established comp over there and someone came along with a sack full of cash, wanting to set up a "Cross Atlantic Super League" this would be huge positive but, the current situation is miles and miles away from this scenario.

They do say "be careful what you wish for".

A sensible post at last. I hope your post gets through to the expansion extremist on here.

Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:21 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Sorry Bramley but, I disagree here.

IF we are going to "invite" clubs from N.America to compete in a European (UK +1) Competition, there has to be a benefit to the competition and this has to be more than a Brexit style crossed finger sign.

What if, we have the Red Hall "dream" of 3 /4 N. American clubs + 2 FRench clubs and 5/6 English clubs and the thing goes pop ?
Dropping half of the current SL clubs and with little chance of them being invited back, would likely see some of them go out of business and if the North American experiment fails OR is so successful that they want their own league, there would be nothing to come back to.
Also, part of supporting any club is going to watch them play and whilst I fully appreciate that for the "expansion" clubs, away games are not even a possibility (bar an odd one or two).
I think that you will find that over a period of time, many fans will find something else to do with their time.
Maybe they will watch some Championship games or maybe another sport but, it would be a gamble for the sport.
Once the gloss wears off, you will be left with supporters drifting away from the sport and we should be working hard to retain ALL supporters and attract new ones.

The real issue here is that NOBODY is either being open about what the port is trying to achieve.
We just have a possibility that N America may be a new horizon but, can you imagine ANY other sport gambling its future on crossed fingers.

Of course IF there was an established comp over there and someone came along with a sack full of cash, wanting to set up a "Cross Atlantic Super League" this would be huge positive but, the current situation is miles and miles away from this scenario.

They do say "be careful what you wish for".

I'm not clear on what part you're disagreeing with? That all clubs should be held to high standards? That all clubs should be delivering growth?

I've made no secret that I think there are risks with the North American venture - and I agree that there needs to be a degree of caution with how this is pursued. I think where we differ in opinion (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that I see expansion as something that needs to pushed harder given that I don't see the growth that the sport needs in the heartlands. I don't see the heartlands clubs reaching new audiences, and I don't think that they can improve the package that we offer to commercial partners and broadcasters. I know that opinion isn't popular with certain posters (whose only contribution to the debate is to happily clap along to their favourite posts like a seal and throw insults at ones they don't agree with), but those same posters don't seem to be able to come up with an argument to refute that suggestion. If they had workable suggestions as to how clubs along the M62 could tap into new markets and bring audiences that sponsors want to pay to reach, I'd happily listen to them and I'd have no issue whatsoever with that.

But the clubs they can demonstrate that. expansion is (in my view) the best opportunity that we have to halt the regression that this sport is currently experiencing and the regression that is (in my view) a much bigger threat to the existence of our clubs than the risks of inviting clubs from elsewhere in the world to compete with us.

I don't agree that we should be holding up French, Canadian or any other clubs to some vague and unspecified standard of "offering something" because it puts any expansion club behind the 8-ball before we've even started - unless we're also going to hold the heartlands clubs to similar standards, in which case what we have is effectively franchising. Yes, expansion into new countries opens up new TV markets and commercial markets for us, but I get the feeling that whatever benefits expansion brings, it won't be enough for many on here.

Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:23 pm  

JEAN CAPDOUZE wrote:

Catalans is not in the Championship. It is in Super League, after decisively defeating lowly Leigh in the MPG. It is unlikely to lose its place in Super League after recently acquiring David Mead, Michael McIlorum, Antoni Maria and Benjamin Jullien.

Toulouse is currently in the Championship, but is likely to be promoted to Super League soon. When that happens the Toulouse player roster, though heavily French, is likely to be strengthened in order to make the team competitive with the "Big Boys" of Super League.

Jean, I did say 'Championship QUALITY'. And that's what they are, in my opinion, until they can prove otherwise.

They did decisively beat Leigh in the MPG, and fully deserved to do so, because Leigh were the poorest team in SL, over the season. That's why we are now in the Championship, and you just narrowly avoided being there.

Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:26 pm  

Let's just remind ourselves how hard it was for the #1 sport in the World to crack the North American market shall we? From our friends at Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_in_the_United_States#Re-emergence_and_growth:_1960s_%E2%80%93_2000s Two professional soccer leagues were started in 1967, the United Soccer Association and the National Professional Soccer League, which merged to form the North American Soccer League in 1968. The NASL enjoyed a significant boost in popularity when the New York Cosmos signed Pelé to play for three seasons in 1975–77. The Cosmos drew large publicity throughout the late 1970s. Between 1977 and 1980, the Cosmos drew crowds of more than 60,000 on ten occasions, and over 70,000 on seven occasions (see Record attendances in United States club soccer). The NASL declined during the early 1980s and disbanded in 1984. The popularity of indoor soccer peaked in the 1980s, with both the NASL[25] and the Major Indoor Soccer League operating indoor soccer leagues. The 1970s and 1980s saw increased popularity of the college game. Women's college soccer received a significant boost in 1972 with the passage of Title IX, which mandated equal funding for women's athletic programs,[citation needed] leading to colleges forming NCAA-sanctioned women's varsity teams. A men's match between Saint Louis University and local rival SIU Edwardsville drew a college record 22,512 fans to Busch Stadium on October 30, 1980.[26] By 1984, more colleges played soccer (532) than American football (505).[27] In 1967 there were 100,000 people playing soccer in the US; by 1984, that number had grown to over 4 million.[27] Girls high school soccer experienced tremendous growth in playing numbers throughout the 1970s and 1980s—from 10,000 in 1976, to 41,000 in 1980, to 122,000 in 1990.[28] The soccer matches for the 1984 Summer Olympics were well attended. Five matches drew over 75,000 fans, and two soccer matches at the Rose Bowl stadium in Pasadena, California, drew over 100,000 fans.[29] These high attendance figures were one factor that FIFA took into consideration in 1988 when deciding to award the 1994 World Cup to the United States.[30] Interest in soccer within the United States continued to grow during the 1990s. This growth has been attributed in significant part to the FIFA World Cup being held in the United States for the first time in 1994. This won the sport more attention from both the media and casual sports fans. The tournament was successful, drawing an average attendance of 68,991, a World Cup record that still stands today. The 1994 World Cup drew record TV audiences in the U.S.[31] As part of the United States' bid to host the 1994 World Cup, U.S. Soccer pledged to create a professional outdoor league. Major League Soccer launched in 1996, which helped develop American players in a way that was not possible without a domestic league. Many of these players competed in the 2002 FIFA World Cup, where the United States reached the quarterfinals, its best result in the modern era. The growth of the women's game during the 1990s helped increase overall interest in soccer in the United States. The number of women's college soccer teams increased from 318 in 1991 to 959 in 2009.[32] Both the 1999 and 2003 FIFA Women's World Cups were held in the United States. The crowd of over 90,000 at the Rose Bowl for the 1999 FIFA Women's World Cup Final remains the largest crowd in the world to witness any women's sporting event.[33] ...back to reality with a thud. We have 1 NA side, with 1 wealthy backer and that side have an impressive PR department as well as a healthy disregard for the salary cap, but they managed to get out of the 3rd tier with a side that cost more than all the other 3rd tier sides combined. This season they have a fixture list that is 100% skewed to favour them both on and off the park and should be challenging for a top tier place. Thus far they have delivered nothing of value to the game other than to dilute the player pool by 30 or so players, have reduced the outlay for their sponsor by spending the first 11 weeks of the year away from home, saving the more money as most of the squad can live with their mammies and yet we find ourselves discussing the conquering of the North American market...........read the bit above in bold red.......they invested heavily in soccer football in the USA and even had the likes of Pele and Georgie Best.....but the way the game grew i the USA was.....drum roll.....from the bottom up with colleges and schools playing the game..........how many schools have the Wolfpack tied in with in Toronto to date? How many colleges in North America have even heard of Rugby League? Here's another reality check from CNN. http://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/16/sport/rise-of-american-rugby-ebner-serevi-wooching/index.html USA Rugby chief executive Dan Payne calls this younger generation his sport's "401K retirement vehicle" -- a major investment for future success. "We need to invest today to be able to get the rewards 10, 15 years from now," he told CNN's World Rugby show in Vegas. So soccer tried many times and failed, but eventually go there by getting the kids playing it.....Union is in the process of doing the same thing but some here think an Aussie mining magnet and a PR whiz are going to deliver the magic bullet to rescue the sport of Rugby League....a sport that is stagnant in Australia and declining in its only other heartland........ ......I'd suggest we sort out developing/saving the sport in it's 2 heartlands before we start dreaming of NYC v Toronto playing in a packed Giants Stadium with a billion pound TV deal

Let's just remind ourselves how hard it was for the #1 sport in the World to crack the North American market shall we? From our friends at Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soccer_in_the_United_States#Re-emergence_and_growth:_1960s_%E2%80%93_2000s Two professional soccer leagues were started in 1967, the United Soccer Association and the National Professional Soccer League, which merged to form the North American Soccer League in 1968. The NASL enjoyed a significant boost in popularity when the New York Cosmos signed Pelé to play for three seasons in 1975–77. The Cosmos drew large publicity throughout the late 1970s. Between 1977 and 1980, the Cosmos drew crowds of more than 60,000 on ten occasions, and over 70,000 on seven occasions (see Record attendances in United States club soccer). The NASL declined during the early 1980s and disbanded in 1984. The popularity of indoor soccer peaked in the 1980s, with both the NASL[25] and the Major Indoor Soccer League operating indoor soccer leagues. The 1970s and 1980s saw increased popularity of the college game. Women's college soccer received a significant boost in 1972 with the passage of Title IX, which mandated equal funding for women's athletic programs,[citation needed] leading to colleges forming NCAA-sanctioned women's varsity teams. A men's match between Saint Louis University and local rival SIU Edwardsville drew a college record 22,512 fans to Busch Stadium on October 30, 1980.[26] By 1984, more colleges played soccer (532) than American football (505).[27] In 1967 there were 100,000 people playing soccer in the US; by 1984, that number had grown to over 4 million.[27] Girls high school soccer experienced tremendous growth in playing numbers throughout the 1970s and 1980s—from 10,000 in 1976, to 41,000 in 1980, to 122,000 in 1990.[28] The soccer matches for the 1984 Summer Olympics were well attended. Five matches drew over 75,000 fans, and two soccer matches at the Rose Bowl stadium in Pasadena, California, drew over 100,000 fans.[29] These high attendance figures were one factor that FIFA took into consideration in 1988 when deciding to award the 1994 World Cup to the United States.[30] Interest in soccer within the United States continued to grow during the 1990s. This growth has been attributed in significant part to the FIFA World Cup being held in the United States for the first time in 1994. This won the sport more attention from both the media and casual sports fans. The tournament was successful, drawing an average attendance of 68,991, a World Cup record that still stands today. The 1994 World Cup drew record TV audiences in the U.S.[31] As part of the United States' bid to host the 1994 World Cup, U.S. Soccer pledged to create a professional outdoor league. Major League Soccer launched in 1996, which helped develop American players in a way that was not possible without a domestic league. Many of these players competed in the 2002 FIFA World Cup, where the United States reached the quarterfinals, its best result in the modern era. The growth of the women's game during the 1990s helped increase overall interest in soccer in the United States. The number of women's college soccer teams increased from 318 in 1991 to 959 in 2009.[32] Both the 1999 and 2003 FIFA Women's World Cups were held in the United States. The crowd of over 90,000 at the Rose Bowl for the 1999 FIFA Women's World Cup Final remains the largest crowd in the world to witness any women's sporting event.[33] ...back to reality with a thud. We have 1 NA side, with 1 wealthy backer and that side have an impressive PR department as well as a healthy disregard for the salary cap, but they managed to get out of the 3rd tier with a side that cost more than all the other 3rd tier sides combined. This season they have a fixture list that is 100% skewed to favour them both on and off the park and should be challenging for a top tier place. Thus far they have delivered nothing of value to the game other than to dilute the player pool by 30 or so players, have reduced the outlay for their sponsor by spending the first 11 weeks of the year away from home, saving the more money as most of the squad can live with their mammies and yet we find ourselves discussing the conquering of the North American market...........read the bit above in bold red.......they invested heavily in soccer football in the USA and even had the likes of Pele and Georgie Best.....but the way the game grew i the USA was.....drum roll.....from the bottom up with colleges and schools playing the game..........how many schools have the Wolfpack tied in with in Toronto to date? How many colleges in North America have even heard of Rugby League? Here's another reality check from CNN. http://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/16/sport/rise-of-american-rugby-ebner-serevi-wooching/index.html USA Rugby chief executive Dan Payne calls this younger generation his sport's "401K retirement vehicle" -- a major investment for future success. "We need to invest today to be able to get the rewards 10, 15 years from now," he told CNN's World Rugby show in Vegas. So soccer tried many times and failed, but eventually go there by getting the kids playing it.....Union is in the process of doing the same thing but some here think an Aussie mining magnet and a PR whiz are going to deliver the magic bullet to rescue the sport of Rugby League....a sport that is stagnant in Australia and declining in its only other heartland........ ......I'd suggest we sort out developing/saving the sport in it's 2 heartlands before we start dreaming of NYC v Toronto playing in a packed Giants Stadium with a billion pound TV deal

Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:36 pm  

JEAN CAPDOUZE wrote:

Catalans is not in the Championship. It is in Super League, after decisively defeating lowly Leigh in the MPG. It is unlikely to lose its place in Super League after recently acquiring David Mead, Michael McIlorum, Antoni Maria and Benjamin Jullien.

Toulouse is currently in the Championship, but is likely to be promoted to Super League soon. When that happens the Toulouse player roster, though heavily French, is likely to be strengthened in order to make the team competitive with the "Big Boys" of Super League.

What makes you think that Toulouse will be in SL soon? They're a very decent Championship team, but nothing special. Toronto have a good squad (albeit a tad depleted now), but why do you think the SL clubs put together £500k for any team that might get relegated last season (as Leigh were)? The £500k wasn't a "parachute" payment from the RFL, it was "donated" by all the other SL clubs to ensure (IMO) that the relegated club (which could have been Catalans) had the best chance of gaining promotion at the end of 2018. Hence (again IMO), the current SL clubs don't seem to want Toronto or Toulouse in their comp.

All conjecture on my part, but it all makes sense to me.

Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:39 pm  

HXSparky wrote:

What makes you think that Toulouse will be in SL soon? They're a very decent Championship team, but nothing special. Toronto have a good squad (albeit a tad depleted now), but why do you think the SL clubs put together £500k for any team that might get relegated last season (as Leigh were)? The £500k wasn't a "parachute" payment from the RFL, it was "donated" by all the other SL clubs to ensure (IMO) that the relegated club (which could have been Catalans) had the best chance of gaining promotion at the end of 2018. Hence (again IMO), the current SL clubs don't seem to want Toronto or Toulouse in their comp.

All conjecture on my part, but it all makes sense to me.

Thats as close to reality as ive seen yet

Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:45 pm  

HXSparky wrote: Hence (again IMO), the current SL clubs don't seem to want Toronto or Toulouse in their comp. ADAM PEARSON: “If it works, then very possibly. We’re meeting Toronto [Wolfpack] next week and, if they’re serious about coming into Super League and adding new broadcast rights and franchises, then we truly have a global game once the Americans get involved, too. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jan/07/super-league-clubs-transformed-adam-pearson-hull

HXSparky wrote: Hence (again IMO), the current SL clubs don't seem to want Toronto or Toulouse in their comp. ADAM PEARSON: “If it works, then very possibly. We’re meeting Toronto [Wolfpack] next week and, if they’re serious about coming into Super League and adding new broadcast rights and franchises, then we truly have a global game once the Americans get involved, too. https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2018/jan/07/super-league-clubs-transformed-adam-pearson-hull

Re: SL to return to 14 in 2019 : Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:21 pm  

That's a fairly bullish interview with one SL club, and we all know how newspapers report things exactly as said? I was just hypothesising about why the SL clubs would be happy to put together a £500k payment should one of their number be relegated. The only conclusion I could get to is that they'd like that club to have the best chance of rejoining SL at the first opportunity.