Re: England team. What next? : Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:48 am  

JEAN CAPDOUZE wrote:

Samuel Tomkins my be playing in the halves at Wigan in 2018, because French star Morgan Escare my get the Wigan full back jersey. So Samuel may not even be considered for the Great Britain full back role.

As you well know, not playing a particular position does not prevent a player being selected there for England/GB.

[TimperleySaint]

Re: England team. What next? : Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:51 am  

Ovavoo wrote:

Do you think Shenton, or even Percival would have won the game for us?
One thing about Bateman and Hall as a centre partnership is that they were rock solid defensively.
Not too sure things would have been the same had Bennett gone with either of the other two.

They may have been rock solid as a partnership, but you lose so much attacking threat down that side with Bateman at centre, because he doesn't pass the ball and/or create any options for Hall. Hall was pretty much a passenger for most of the tournament and therefore all of our attack has to come down the other side - hence all the tries McGillvary scored and the metres he made compared to Hall.

Re: England team. What next? : Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:53 am  

Is Zachary Hardaker serving a long term ban for his drug taking? If not, he could be considered for full back, with Gareth Widdop and Samuel Tomkins playing in the halves.

Re: England team. What next? : Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:06 am  

nottinghamtiger wrote:

Shenton missed less tackles per game than Bateman in 2017 and he had the disadvantage of defending inside Greg Eden.
He’s always been known as a defensive centre and his attacking game has only really come on in the last couple of years under Powell.
As someone who watches him regularly, I think he’s the key to Cas’ successful left edge. The lines he runs stand defenders up and get them biting on the inside, giving the opportunity for the link between the half back, full back and winger that has proven so successful for Castleford.
With Shenton at centre, I don’t think we would have lost anything defensively and we would have gained more attacking threat.

I'd have gone with Shenton too. Think he's a much better defender than some on here give him credit for and also has the experience of defending next to Gale so would've been a understanding there.

If you were on the Aussie right wing/centre who would you rather face? A guy out of position that never gets the ball to the winger or a guy who knows the position inside out and proven can pass and create for his winger?

Would anybody really prefer to face the latter over the former?

Re: England team. What next? : Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:11 am  

PrinterThe wrote:

I'd have gone with Shenton too. Think he's a much better defender than some on here give him credit for and also has the experience of defending next to Gale so would've been a understanding there.

If you were on the Aussie right wing/centre who would you rather face? A guy out of position that never gets the ball to the winger or a guy who knows the position inside out and proven can pass and create for his winger?

Would anybody really prefer to face the latter over the former?

That's my thinking. Will Chambers is steady but Greg Inglis he is not so to think we needed some defensive rock there anyway was wrong imo.I would have had Shenton in, but Percival who was already in the squad should have taken up the left centre berth from the Lebanon game.

[Bullseye]

Re: England team. What next? : Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:44 am  

the artist wrote:

who do we say 'thanks very much for your efforts' to and pack them off into the sunset?

Nobody unless they decide they’ve had enough. I think you pick the side on form and if someone is in form and playing well enough age doesn’t come into it.

the artist wrote:

who is worth a promotion to the squad (there will be a 'get together' squad early season i would have thought)

Depends who is in form. I’d like to see Steve Ward in the side as he could be a fixture in sides to come. Mark Percival needs to be given a chance in the left centre position.

the artist wrote:

do we go for wholesale changes fairly soon in order to build for the nest WC, or stick with the players who did a decent job in this tournament?

No to wholesale changes – that would be daft given that we were within inches of winning. However there are some good players about that didn’t make it. If they regain form then they should be in with a shout.

the artist wrote:

who surprised you in this tournament - either good or bad?

McGillvary went very well indeed. He’s always been a handful but he proved himself at the highest level. Whitehead showed himself as top class too. They both performed better than I expected. I was a little disappointed with Josh Hodgson who had a mixed tournament IMO.

the artist wrote:

how do you see the england team lining up for the kiwi test series (and the mid season game for that matter)?

Depends on form. Would like to see Darryl Clark get back to form. Maybe Steve Ward. Mark Percival or maybe Oliver Gildart.

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

Tomkins is the only player we have with some kind of 'X Factor' with the ball. He could also play on the left whilst Widdopp plays right. We definitely need a left centre who is actually a centre. Longer term we have to hope we conjure a halfback from somewhere who actually knows how to control a game and is a menace in attack.

Tomkins just prior to his NRL stint would walk into the side. The Tomkins of 2018 I’m less sure. He’s got great hands and can see him improving us in attack but I wouldn’t have him near the fullback position. He was exposed there. Maybe as a stand off but his defence is a bit shaky.

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

As for the coach I really despair if people can't see the improvement in defence this tournament. We struggled in attack because we simply don't have quality playmakers, with too much responsibility on Widdopp. The only thing I'd criticise Bennett for is not picking Percival for the final, but he did what people bagged McNamara for not doing previously, in sticking with players and giving combinations a chance to develop.

Agreed there. People seem to want to chuck the baby out with the bathwater – see Schofield’s column in the League Express. We just need better decision making at halfback and a better left centre than Bateman. We’re not far off.

Re: England team. What next? : Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:02 pm  

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

As for the coach I really despair if people can't see the improvement in defence this tournament. We struggled in attack because we simply don't have quality playmakers, with too much responsibility on Widdopp.

I don't think anybody doesn't see the improvement in defence but it has to be weighted against the attack which has become worst under him. You can't praise him for defence and absolve him of blame for the attack. His hands weren't tied in picking Brown who hasn't in any way merited selection over the two years Bennett has been coach. Apart from Watkins' chance when he was ankle tapped I never thought we truly looked like scoring and never saw anything earlier in the tournament to suggest we had enough points in us. Whilst defence is of massive importance it's redundant if you can't get over the line. Trying to play with 12 men in attack given Hall was a passenger outside Bateman is down to the coach.

[Bullseye]

Re: England team. What next? : Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:26 pm  

PrinterThe wrote:

I don't think anybody doesn't see the improvement in defence but it has to be weighted against the attack which has become worst under him. You can't praise him for defence and absolve him of blame for the attack. His hands weren't tied in picking Brown who hasn't in any way merited selection over the two years Bennett has been coach. Apart from Watkins' chance when he was ankle tapped I never thought we truly looked like scoring and never saw anything earlier in the tournament to suggest we had enough points in us. Whilst defence is of massive importance it's redundant if you can't get over the line. Trying to play with 12 men in attack given Hall was a passenger outside Bateman is down to the coach.

I think you're right but going a bit overboard. We were after all playing versus by far the best side in the comp so attacking chances weren't going to come along often. Australia looked more fluent but only scored one try remember and that's with the best halfback and hooker in the world. I'm hoping that 2018 will see the emergence of Gildart, Percival or maybe even Sutcliffe as genuine test centre candidates.

I'd like to see us build on what we have. I think we will improve in attack, we just could do with another stand off. I think Gale kicked long very well but lacked composure near the line. Widdop looked good down the right.

I think the spotlight falls on Williams to improve and develop his game management and passing game. He could be the answer at 6. Looking elsewhere there are some very young halfbacks that are promising but they need to nail down a SL place first.

Re: England team. What next? : Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:28 pm  

JEAN CAPDOUZE wrote:

Is Zachary Hardaker serving a long term ban for his drug taking? If not, he could be considered for full back, with Gareth Widdop and Samuel Tomkins playing in the halves.

will be a two year ban like chase

Re: England team. What next? : Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:59 pm  

JEAN CAPDOUZE wrote:

Samuel Tomkins my be playing in the halves at Wigan in 2018, because French star Morgan Escare my get the Wigan full back jersey. So Samuel may not even be considered for the Great Britain full back role.

I wouldn't have Hardaker for England now. We need committed players, he's had too many chances.

Lots of rebuilding to be done between now and the next world cup. I reckon:

OUT IN

1 Widdop - Lomax
2 McGillvary - Manfredi
3 Watkins
4 Bateman - Percival
5 Hall - Eden
6 Brown - Williams
7 Gale - Sneyd
8 Graham - Walmsley
9 Hodgson
10 Hill - S.Burgess
11 Whitehead - Currie
12 S.Burgess - Bateman
13 O'Loughlin - Ward

14 T.Burgess
15 Roby - Clark
16 Walmsley - Taylor
17 Heighington - Farrell

Mind, that would still probably be a bit of a dad's army by 2021. It will be interesting to see who comes through to replace our outgoing top players.