Re: Bulls in administration again : Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:24 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

Brand new club, in Bradford, playing at Odsal, with the remains of the Bulls squad but, yes, it's a brand new club.

And lets not forget a brand new club that starts in the championship why other new clubs have to start in Championship 1

Re: Bulls in administration again : Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:41 am  

wrencat1873 wrote: Brand new club, in Bradford, playing at Odsal, with the remains of the Bulls squad but, yes, it's a brand new club. It depends how you see it I suppose. I look at it that it's the same 'club', which by definition describes a group of people joining together in the interests of a common activity. In this case that activity is Rugby League in Bradford. The people are the same, they're the thousands of Bradford fans. If they remain, so does the club. They'll still be called the Bulls, still likely play at Odsal, have a lot of the same squad, they'll play in black, amber, white & red and they'll uphold the same traditions of the Bradford sides before them. What has changed is the Limited company that runs the club on behalf of the fans. This is why they've not been dumped out of the leagues but allowed to remain in the Championship, but with a hefty deduction. I appreciate not many will have this opinion, and it seems fans of other clubs seem to want their pound of flesh. Before you do come back, remember that a Ltd company called "Wakefield Trinity Rugby League Club Limited" was dissolved in 2013. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02623391 It was only incorporated in 1991 too. Does this make Wakefield a new club?

wrencat1873 wrote: Brand new club, in Bradford, playing at Odsal, with the remains of the Bulls squad but, yes, it's a brand new club. It depends how you see it I suppose. I look at it that it's the same 'club', which by definition describes a group of people joining together in the interests of a common activity. In this case that activity is Rugby League in Bradford. The people are the same, they're the thousands of Bradford fans. If they remain, so does the club. They'll still be called the Bulls, still likely play at Odsal, have a lot of the same squad, they'll play in black, amber, white & red and they'll uphold the same traditions of the Bradford sides before them. What has changed is the Limited company that runs the club on behalf of the fans. This is why they've not been dumped out of the leagues but allowed to remain in the Championship, but with a hefty deduction. I appreciate not many will have this opinion, and it seems fans of other clubs seem to want their pound of flesh. Before you do come back, remember that a Ltd company called "Wakefield Trinity Rugby League Club Limited" was dissolved in 2013. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02623391 It was only incorporated in 1991 too. Does this make Wakefield a new club?

Re: Bulls in administration again : Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:46 am  

Huddersfield1895 wrote: And lets not forget a brand new club that starts in the championship why other new clubs have to start in Championship 1 https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/01810029 See my reply above. Does that make Huddersfield just 16/17 years old? Did Huddersfield have to start again in the 3rd tier?

Huddersfield1895 wrote: And lets not forget a brand new club that starts in the championship why other new clubs have to start in Championship 1 https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/01810029 See my reply above. Does that make Huddersfield just 16/17 years old? Did Huddersfield have to start again in the 3rd tier?

Re: Bulls in administration again : Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:02 am  

DGM wrote: It depends how you see it I suppose. I look at it that it's the same 'club', which by definition describes a group of people joining together in the interests of a common activity. In this case that activity is Rugby League in Bradford. The people are the same, they're the thousands of Bradford fans. If they remain, so does the club. They'll still be called the Bulls, still likely play at Odsal, have a lot of the same squad, they'll play in black, amber, white & red and they'll uphold the same traditions of the Bradford sides before them. What has changed is the Limited company that runs the club on behalf of the fans. This is why they've not been dumped out of the leagues but allowed to remain in the Championship, but with a hefty deduction. I appreciate not many will have this opinion, and it seems fans of other clubs seem to want their pound of flesh. Before you do come back, remember that a Ltd company called "Wakefield Trinity Rugby League Club Limited" was dissolved in 2013. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02623391 It was only incorporated in 1991 too. Does this make Wakefield a new club? I was only answering a previous post but, as you know, Wakefield weren't liquidated, although there was a change of ownership, following a period in administration, hence the new "trading name". There are 2 huge issues with the Bradford situation. The first is that clubs that are liquidated, are supposed to "start again" in the third tier and of course the long running debacle that is Odsal. The question should be asked, whether the RFL are dealing with Bradford differently because of the "iconic stadium" and whether other clubs, that find themselves in similar circumstances at some point in the future, will be dealt with in the same way. Finally, there is no denying that a strong and successful Bradford club would be good for the game and their success in the early part of the SL era was superb but, for now, that is in the past and The RFL seem to be in denial over this which appears to be clouding their judgement.

DGM wrote: It depends how you see it I suppose. I look at it that it's the same 'club', which by definition describes a group of people joining together in the interests of a common activity. In this case that activity is Rugby League in Bradford. The people are the same, they're the thousands of Bradford fans. If they remain, so does the club. They'll still be called the Bulls, still likely play at Odsal, have a lot of the same squad, they'll play in black, amber, white & red and they'll uphold the same traditions of the Bradford sides before them. What has changed is the Limited company that runs the club on behalf of the fans. This is why they've not been dumped out of the leagues but allowed to remain in the Championship, but with a hefty deduction. I appreciate not many will have this opinion, and it seems fans of other clubs seem to want their pound of flesh. Before you do come back, remember that a Ltd company called "Wakefield Trinity Rugby League Club Limited" was dissolved in 2013. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02623391 It was only incorporated in 1991 too. Does this make Wakefield a new club? I was only answering a previous post but, as you know, Wakefield weren't liquidated, although there was a change of ownership, following a period in administration, hence the new "trading name". There are 2 huge issues with the Bradford situation. The first is that clubs that are liquidated, are supposed to "start again" in the third tier and of course the long running debacle that is Odsal. The question should be asked, whether the RFL are dealing with Bradford differently because of the "iconic stadium" and whether other clubs, that find themselves in similar circumstances at some point in the future, will be dealt with in the same way. Finally, there is no denying that a strong and successful Bradford club would be good for the game and their success in the early part of the SL era was superb but, for now, that is in the past and The RFL seem to be in denial over this which appears to be clouding their judgement.

Re: Bulls in administration again : Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:15 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I was only answering a previous post but, as you know, Wakefield weren't liquidated, although there was a change of ownership, following a period in administration, hence the new "trading name".

The only difference there is that Wakey managed to find a buyer before they were liquidated then? But ultimately, the entity running the club has changed, the same as it has at Bradford. That's my point really, the ownership (the Ltd company) I see as separate to the 'club' itself.

wrencat1873 wrote:

There are 2 huge issues with the Bradford situation.
The first is that clubs that are liquidated, are supposed to "start again" in the third tier and of course the long running debacle that is Odsal.

I don't think this is in the RFL operation rules anywhere, is it? Doesn't it say something along the lines of that punishment is an the RFL's discretion, hence the hefty points deduction.

wrencat1873 wrote:

The question should be asked, whether the RFL are dealing with Bradford differently because of the "iconic stadium" and whether other clubs, that find themselves in similar circumstances at some point in the future, will be dealt with in the same way.

Only time will tell really, you can't really have a pop at them for something that hasn't happened yet.

Re: Bulls in administration again : Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:36 am  

DGM wrote:

The only difference there is that Wakey managed to find a buyer before they were liquidated then? But ultimately, the entity running the club has changed, the same as it has at Bradford. That's my point really, the ownership (the Ltd company) I see as separate to the 'club' itself.


I don't think this is in the RFL operation rules anywhere, is it? Doesn't it say something along the lines of that punishment is an the RFL's discretion, hence the hefty points deduction.


Only time will tell really, you can't really have a pop at them for something that hasn't happened yet.

First of all, taking any business from administration is massively different to starting a new business, albeit in the same premises but, I know that you are aware of this.

Certainly Wakefield were informed that they would be relegated to the third tier if they "started over" although we will never know if this was a threat of actually going to happen.

Regarding Odsal, The RFL should be hammered over their handling of this issue.
The "secret" loan/lease deal, that only came to light some while after the event, has proven to be a costly error and it is right and proper that questions are asked.
Although the "£700,000" that was given to Bradford, in return for "control" of the lease, disappeared straight into the ether and left Bradford paying substantially more rent to play RL at Odsal, something that "New Bradford" will still have to deal with.
This was clearly a shocking piece of "business" by The RFL and yet nobody has been held to account.

Re: Bulls in administration again : Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:06 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

First of all, taking any business from administration is massively different to starting a new business, albeit in the same premises but, I know that you are aware of this.

But a new business was set up. There was a new company incorporated to run the Wakefield club and the old one dissolved, it's all there on companies house. That's my point really, (and it's not me picking at Wakey as my club were in an awful position in this regard in 1999) is that all that's changed is the Limited company running the club, whether through liquidation, or a 'sale' to a new Ltd. The outcome is the same, and the club are run by a new Ltd.

That's why I've always seen a club (the fans, the traditions, the history etc) as separate to the legal entity that happens to be running the club.

Like I said originally, everyone has their view on it and I'm not saying I'm right, it's just how I see it and I have no issue with Bradford continuing in the Championship, but with the hefty points deduction.

wrencat1873 wrote:

Certainly Wakefield were informed that they would be relegated to the third tier if they "started over" although we will never know if this was a threat of actually going to happen.

Regarding Odsal, The RFL should be hammered over their handling of this issue.
The "secret" loan/lease deal, that only came to light some while after the event, has proven to be a costly error and it is right and proper that questions are asked.
Although the "£700,000" that was given to Bradford, in return for "control" of the lease, disappeared straight into the ether and left Bradford paying substantially more rent to play RL at Odsal, something that "New Bradford" will still have to deal with.
This was clearly a shocking piece of "business" by The RFL and yet nobody has been held to account.

You won't get any arguments from me on that front regards to the way the RFL have handled the whole Odsal thing.

Re: Bulls in administration again : Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:27 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

The question should be asked, whether the RFL are dealing with Bradford differently because of the "iconic stadium" and whether other clubs, that find themselves in similar circumstances at some point in the future, will be dealt with in the same way.

I think you are hoping for a lot there WC. The RFL will deal with any club how they see fit. Bulls are obviously seen as a sleeping giant in the game who (if they get back into SL) will potentially top 10,000 average attendances. Lesser clubs won't get the same treatment because they are deemed as less important to the overall competition.

We know franchising is gone but in a sense some of the old criteria still resonates within the game. Attendances, facilities and catchment area are all key to having a strong Superleague. I'm not a believer in conspiracies but we all have our own ideas of who the RFL would like dining at the top table. Bradford are one of those clubs and rightfully so IMO.

Re: Bulls in administration again : Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:34 am  

DGM wrote:

The only difference there is that Wakey managed to find a buyer before they were liquidated then? But ultimately, the entity running the club has changed, the same as it has at Bradford. That's my point really, the ownership (the Ltd company) I see as separate to the 'club' itself.

The difference as I see it is that someone was willing to save the history and position of Wakefield by buying the club (as previous owners of Bradford also did), nobody was willing to buy the history and position of Bradford this time so they should have lost it (who knows if the RFL will allow the new club to retain the history).

Re: Bulls in administration again : Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:17 am  

wrencat1873 wrote:

This was clearly a shocking piece of "business" by The RFL and yet nobody has been held to account.

What are you expecting to happen? How do you know what internal reviews have taken place?