Re: Top Championship sides.... : Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:04 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

If you are claiming those players as your own, how does Fages fit in ?

He may have played in your academy but the guy is French, not Mancunian ?

Salfordian please!

Have you heard his accent recently?

Re: Top Championship sides.... : Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:04 pm  

John Gilbert Reds wrote:

We’re surely not the worst in that respect?

All of Theo Fages, Niall Evalds, Jordan Walne, Adam Walne and Jay Walton have come through our academy system and have played this season. We’ve also got Adrian Morley and Harrison Hansen (OK H wasn’t born in Salford but came over as a 2 year old I believe and grew up in the City) as our two Salford representatives.

We’ve also got Stefan Ratchford, Jordan Turner and Marc Sneyd playing in Super League, again all of which came through our academy system.

I make it that Salford are the worst out of the 11 English SL clubs. I haven't looked at Catalans as it's more complicated with them having a slightly different system.

I may well have got one or 2 wrong but it gives an idea -

# of homegrown players in 30 man squad:

Leeds - 19
St Helens & Wigan - 18
Huddersfield, Hull FC & Warrington - 13
Castleford & Hull KR - 11
Widnes - 8
Wakefield - 6
Salford - 5

As I say they may be one or two out either way but it gives a general idea.

For me it shows that you can't actually buy success. You need a good youth setup which is then supplemented by quality signings. But you won't be able to sign and keep enough quality players to be successful.

Re: Top Championship sides.... : Mon Mar 30, 2015 6:18 pm  

Him wrote:

I make it that Salford are the worst out of the 11 English SL clubs. I haven't looked at Catalans as it's more complicated with them having a slightly different system.

I may well have got one or 2 wrong but it gives an idea -

# of homegrown players in 30 man squad:

Leeds - 19
St Helens & Wigan - 18
Huddersfield, Hull FC & Warrington - 13
Castleford & Hull KR - 11
Widnes - 8
Wakefield - 6
Salford - 5

As I say they may be one or two out either way but it gives a general idea.

For me it shows that you can't actually buy success. You need a good youth setup which is then supplemented by quality signings. But you won't be able to sign and keep enough quality players to be successful.

I think this shows the benefit of quality youth development and it's no coincidence that Wakefield and Widnes are struggling.
The stats are almost a mirror of league positions.

Re: Top Championship sides.... : Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:02 pm  

wrencat1873 wrote:

I think this shows the benefit of quality youth development and it's no coincidence that Wakefield and Widnes are struggling.
The stats are almost a mirror of league positions.

Yep. I think the benefits of it are becoming more and more apparent as money is much tighter across the whole game and teams can't make up for a lack of youth development by buying in quality players as easily anymore.
Plenty of teams, including my own, have done that in the past but as you say the numbers almost match the league positions and, I reckon, won't be far off that by the end of the season.

Re: Top Championship sides.... : Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:14 pm  

Him wrote:

But I don't think anyone could accuse Salford of buying success.

You're not wrong

Re: Top Championship sides.... : Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:19 pm  

Him wrote:

I make it that Salford are the worst out of the 11 English SL clubs. I haven't looked at Catalans as it's more complicated with them having a slightly different system.

I may well have got one or 2 wrong but it gives an idea -

# of homegrown players in 30 man squad:

Leeds - 19
St Helens & Wigan - 18
Huddersfield, Hull FC & Warrington - 13
Castleford & Hull KR - 11
Widnes - 8
Wakefield - 6
Salford - 5

As I say they may be one or two out either way but it gives a general idea.

For me it shows that you can't actually buy success. You need a good youth setup which is then supplemented by quality signings. But you won't be able to sign and keep enough quality players to be successful.

Hull have 15, not including Lineham who we signed from York but who spent time in our academy. Our under 19s are third in the league and had started the season with 4 straight wins until Wigan beat them at weekend. We had 4 players involved in the England schoolboys team including the captain. Unfortunately the coaching team is awful and the first team is 11th.

So what I'm getting at is that whilst having a good youth system is important it doesn't automatically mean success. What it does mean is that you have to pay over the odds to attract other teams players if you can't bring through your own. However if you build a good squad, get the right coaching in place and have some success first, it makes attracting good youngsters to the club a lot easier. It is also a lot easier to introduce youngsters into a winning first team.

Re: Top Championship sides.... : Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:53 pm  

Mr. Zucchini Head wrote:

Hull have 15, not including Lineham who we signed from York but who spent time in our academy. Our under 19s are third in the league and had started the season with 4 straight wins until Wigan beat them at weekend. We had 4 players involved in the England schoolboys team including the captain. Unfortunately the coaching team is awful and the first team is 11th.

So what I'm getting at is that whilst having a good youth system is important it doesn't automatically mean success. What it does mean is that you have to pay over the odds to attract other teams players if you can't bring through your own. However if you build a good squad, get the right coaching in place and have some success first, it makes attracting good youngsters to the club a lot easier. It is also a lot easier to introduce youngsters into a winning first team.

I make it 13:
Shaul
Lineham
Yeaman
Houghton
Green
Hadley
Cunningham
Bowden
Logan
Turgut
Downs
Abdull
Lancaster

I excluded both the Tyson-Wilson's as I had to limit the squad to 30 players, happy to be corrected. Though as I said its to give an idea.

You're right in that pure numbers won't help that much, it's where you have to have good scouting and something to offer the youngsters. Plus helping develop amateur clubs and leagues in the first place to get more coming through. Then of course good academy coaching and a visible route to the first team. It's a holistic approach that is needed.

The U19's results are pretty irrelevant now. Most of Leeds best youngsters aren't playing for the u19's they're on loan or DR with other clubs. But it's how you integrate those u19's into the first team that's the real skill.

For me, Brad Singleton is a perfect example of how a club should "go about it".
He's from Cumbria, so Leeds scouts did a good job as did whoever negotiated getting him to sign for Leeds.
He was trained and developed well so the academy coaches did a good job.
He was put on loan at Wakey and DR at both Hunslet and Dewsbury so management did a good job.
Then he was eased in to first team games over the course of a couple of years, so the 1st team coaches did a good job.

That patience and good work is paying off now. Too often I see players who've shone at academy level just shoved into the first team.

You're right in that it doesn't guarantee success, but I don't think a club can be successful without it.

Re: Top Championship sides.... : Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:55 pm  

Him wrote:

I make it 13:
Shaul
Lineham
Yeaman
Houghton
Green
Hadley
Cunningham
Bowden
Logan
Turgut
Downs
Abdull
Lancaster

I excluded both the Tyson-Wilson's as I had to limit the squad to 30 players, happy to be corrected. Though as I said its to give an idea.

You're right in that pure numbers won't help that much, it's where you have to have good scouting and something to offer the youngsters. Plus helping develop amateur clubs and leagues in the first place to get more coming through. Then of course good academy coaching and a visible route to the first team. It's a holistic approach that is needed.

The U19's results are pretty irrelevant now. Most of Leeds best youngsters aren't playing for the u19's they're on loan or DR with other clubs. But it's how you integrate those u19's into the first team that's the real skill.

For me, Brad Singleton is a perfect example of how a club should "go about it".
He's from Cumbria, so Leeds scouts did a good job as did whoever negotiated getting him to sign for Leeds.
He was trained and developed well so the academy coaches did a good job.
He was put on loan at Wakey and DR at both Hunslet and Dewsbury so management did a good job.
Then he was eased in to first team games over the course of a couple of years, so the 1st team coaches did a good job.

That patience and good work is paying off now. Too often I see players who've shone at academy level just shoved into the first team.

You're right in that it doesn't guarantee success, but I don't think a club can be successful without it.

Fair enough, the numbers weren't really my point anyway. I was just illustrating the point that Hull have an above average youth system but it isn't translating to the first team.

What I'm trying to get at is that it's a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario for Salford. I agree that to be successful and more importantly, to sustain it, you need a decent junior set up. It takes strain off your salary cap because obviously a player that has been with the club since 14 and is just starting out will be earning less money. You can bring in players from wherever you like, but it's more difficult to build a competitive squad this way.

The issue Salford have is that as long as they are a bottom half team with crowds of 4000, the top kids in the area will choose Wigan, Saints, Warrington or whoever. Until they become successful they won't be able to attract the top prospects, which makes it harder to get that success. It's a vicious circle. For now their only option is to attempt to buy success whilst laying the foundations at youth level. But it will be 10 years hard work until they are properly sustainable on the playing front.

Re: Top Championship sides.... : Mon Mar 30, 2015 11:34 pm  

Mr. Zucchini Head wrote:

Fair enough, the numbers weren't really my point anyway. I was just illustrating the point that Hull have an above average youth system but it isn't translating to the first team.

What I'm trying to get at is that it's a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario for Salford. I agree that to be successful and more importantly, to sustain it, you need a decent junior set up. It takes strain off your salary cap because obviously a player that has been with the club since 14 and is just starting out will be earning less money. You can bring in players from wherever you like, but it's more difficult to build a competitive squad this way.

The issue Salford have is that as long as they are a bottom half team with crowds of 4000, the top kids in the area will choose Wigan, Saints, Warrington or whoever. Until they become successful they won't be able to attract the top prospects, which makes it harder to get that success. It's a vicious circle. For now their only option is to attempt to buy success whilst laying the foundations at youth level. But it will be 10 years hard work until they are properly sustainable on the playing front.

Agree entirely, I think though that both Koukash and some of the Salford fans haven't realised how difficult it is to buy in quality players across the whole team and that their definition of success will have to be recalibrated a tad. Success is, in my opinion, regular mid table in 5 years time. But even that is going to be very difficult and require either a lot more money from Koukash or a lot better decisions to be made at management level.

Either way it's not going to be a quick route to ultimate success at all, as you say we're talking over a decade rather than just a year or 2.

Re: Top Championship sides.... : Tue Mar 31, 2015 7:07 am  

Him wrote:

Agree entirely, I think though that both Koukash and some of the Salford fans haven't realised how difficult it is to buy in quality players across the whole team and that their definition of success will have to be recalibrated a tad. Success is, in my opinion, regular mid table in 5 years time. But even that is going to be very difficult and require either a lot more money from Koukash or a lot better decisions to be made at management level.

Either way it's not going to be a quick route to ultimate success at all, as you say we're talking over a decade rather than just a year or 2.

It was only Koucash and some of the hysterical Salford fans that actually thought that they could mount a serious challenge in SL.
The mere fact that Wigan, Saints, Warrington and Leeds would all have to roll over, makes the task almost impossible.
Even if/when they get up to speed and have a truly competitive squad, they will struggle to consistently break into the top 4.

Having said that, it must be nice to have an owner with such deep pockets !