Re: Time to wave the white flag. : Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:14 pm  

[quote="vastman"]Like most things the answer is simple.

Employ an able ambitious CEO and give him TOTAL power for at least five years.
.[/quote]

I couldn't agree more...what the game needs is some proper business expertise, an outsider with no vested interests, somebody who can get all involved on board, somebody who has proven experience at running a multi million or even billion pound business. As you say we need to give him (presumably it will be a him) TOTAL power...I say Donald Trump ! He'll also be available in a couple of weeks.

Re: Time to wave the white flag. : Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:16 pm  

vastman wrote:

Like most things the answer is simple.

Employ an able ambitious CEO and give him TOTAL power for at least five years.
.

I couldn't agree more...what the game needs is some proper business expertise, an outsider with no vested interests, somebody who can get all involved on board, somebody who has proven experience at running a multi million or even billion pound business. As you say we need to give him (presumably it will be a him) TOTAL power...I say Donald Trump ! He'll also be available in a couple of weeks.

Re: Time to wave the white flag. : Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:27 pm  

Madderzahatter wrote:

How can you expect anything from a game that encourages short-term success over long-term gain? Clubs basically gambling to stay in Super League. Sure, P&R was entertaining this year, but at what cost to Hull KR and Salford to a degree. What happens if Leigh go down the following year? Unfortunately, the cold harsh truth is that Super League needs to be a close shop for a good 10 years or so to get its house in order. Whether it's 10 or 14 clubs, I don't really care. Also, the game is crying out for England to win a meaningful competition or test series when it really matters. Hopefully this starts with the 4Nations...

Key words you used "it was entertaining"....that what is should be and the franchise system didn't offer that. And it was a closed shop for several seasons, and it's because of that HKR after finishing 4th in 2009 just plodded along after that seemingly content to make up the numbers in the middle of the table and found themselves the first casualties of this new system because they had a "we'll be fine" attitude. HKR going down could be the best thing to happen in a while and I don't mean that as a dig to HKR fans, but clubs now hopefully wake up that they can't just plod along and be safe, they can't just plod along and still expect to have a shot at a playoff spot with several rounds remaining.

Re: Time to wave the white flag. : Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:56 pm  

theredshed wrote:

I think for the sport over here to progress England need to win this 4 nations series and stop being losers every time. Easier said than done but another gallant effort and hard luck story isn't going to cut it I'm afraid. It's decades now since we won an International tournament or series against the aussies. This has impacted negatively on the sport here and I can't see any change until we can somehow pull something out of the bag. I think this failure at International level doesn't just affect attendances, it's also sponsorship, TV revenue and more kids taking up the sport.

You could have the best CEO and marketeers in world sport but they will be limited to what they can offer if people always consider us an inferior rugby league nation with an inferior domestic competition

I think that's definitely a factor, I don't know if it's the major one though.

Firstly, and I know some people will decry this as paranoia, but there is a bias against RL. Now, I think in the past this was an active bias against RL by the Union types, there were active efforts to disrupt and hold back RL. Whilst that still occasionally happens, RL is now more affected by the general bias against anything outside London and the public school system. The media and the government are both run by the public school establishment who only ever endorse and push their pet causes and issues and sometimes actively, sometimes passively ignore causes that aren't relevant to them. Add in the centralisation of both politics and media in the last few decades and it's really hit RL.

Secondly, the obsession with the domestic game, here but especially in Australia, has been to the detriment on the game as a whole. The international game has suffered from neglect and little to no long term planning. This in turn has affected the games media and public profile.

Thirdly, the clubs flagrant disregard for investment and long term planning has massively hindered growth both nationally but also locally.

Re: Time to wave the white flag. : Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:08 am  

Him wrote:

I think that's definitely a factor, I don't know if it's the major one though.

Firstly, and I know some people will decry this as paranoia, but there is a bias against RL. Now, I think in the past this was an active bias against RL by the Union types, there were active efforts to disrupt and hold back RL. Whilst that still occasionally happens, RL is now more affected by the general bias against anything outside London and the public school system. The media and the government are both run by the public school establishment who only ever endorse and push their pet causes and issues and sometimes actively, sometimes passively ignore causes that aren't relevant to them. Add in the centralisation of both politics and media in the last few decades and it's really hit RL.

Secondly, the obsession with the domestic game, here but especially in Australia, has been to the detriment on the game as a whole. The international game has suffered from neglect and little to no long term planning. This in turn has affected the games media and public profile.

Thirdly, the clubs flagrant disregard for investment and long term planning has massively hindered growth both nationally but also locally.

I don't think there is an active bias against RL by the establishment or whoever, there may have been at one point, but not now. Now there is no need to bother. The problem now is that RL has a small time parochial mentality which makes it appear a bit comedic versus bigger or better managed sports. Football is way out in front, everything pales before its dominance and consequently it couldn't give a **** about any other sport. Football has also successfully gentrified itself since the 70's and 80's so that as well as mass appeal it's now okay for establishment figures to be football fans where they were once Union or Cricket fans. Other big sports like Tennis, Cricket and Union have broad enough bases or well are enough managed to not have to worry too much. Union doesn't worry about RL any longer, it may have delusions of grandeur about its actual place in world sport, but its well enough managed to keep sell itself even when the on the field product is variable (RU games often veer between highly entertaining and dour with little in between). RL by contrast shoots itself in the foot too much with poor planning and parochialism, and in SL the product quality itself has been declining for too long for a variety of reasons: too many clubs don't invest enough in player development, the salary cap has been too low for too long which means if you are a promising young player you'd be better off playing RU (I'm not talking about high profile converts here), the strength of the NRL means we get less quality from down under now which hurts those teams who don't invest in player development even more. Finally there is the image problem, and not just the traditional flat caps and whippets but the fans of certain clubs who come across as violent chavs (it doesn't matter if it's only a small minority), it just doesn't look good on TV if the fans at the front are spitting, swearing, giving the V or throwing bottles on the pitch.

I'm not sure what the solution is, if there is a solution. Maybe it almost needs a sort of root and branch renewal movement the RFL, the clubs, the players, the fans all have to improve.

Re: Time to wave the white flag. : Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:20 am  

Kelvin's Ferret wrote:

I don't think there is an active bias against RL by the establishment or whoever, there may have been at one point, but not now. Now there is no need to bother. The problem now is that RL has a small time parochial mentality which makes it appear a bit comedic versus bigger or better managed sports. Football is way out in front, everything pales before its dominance and consequently it couldn't give a **** about any other sport. Football has also successfully gentrified itself since the 70's and 80's so that as well as mass appeal it's now okay for establishment figures to be football fans where they were once Union or Cricket fans. Other big sports like Tennis, Cricket and Union have broad enough bases or well are enough managed to not have to worry too much. Union doesn't worry about RL any longer, it may have delusions of grandeur about its actual place in world sport, but its well enough managed to keep sell itself even when the on the field product is variable (RU games often veer between highly entertaining and dour with little in between). RL by contrast shoots itself in the foot too much with poor planning and parochialism, and in SL the product quality itself has been declining for too long for a variety of reasons: too many clubs don't invest enough in player development, the salary cap has been too low for too long which means if you are a promising young player you'd be better off playing RU (I'm not talking about high profile converts here), the strength of the NRL means we get less quality from down under now which hurts those teams who don't invest in player development even more. Finally there is the image problem, and not just the traditional flat caps and whippets but the fans of certain clubs who come across as violent chavs (it doesn't matter if it's only a small minority), it just doesn't look good on TV if the fans at the front are spitting, swearing, giving the V or throwing bottles on the pitch.

I'm not sure what the solution is, if there is a solution. Maybe it almost needs a sort of root and branch renewal movement the RFL, the clubs, the players, the fans all have to improve.

I petty much agree with you on all of that but, there is certainly bias/disdain from elements of the media.
The Challenge cup draw that was featured on Radio 4 was utterly disgraceful.

Whether they were trying to ridicule the game or just made a total hash of presenting the draw is up for debate but, for me, the game should certainly be selling itself much, much better.

We have THE toughest physical game in the world, plate by some of the finest all round athletes on the planet and we almost seem "happy" to play down the games strengths.

Re: Time to wave the white flag. : Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:23 pm  

Him wrote:

Secondly, the obsession with the domestic game, here but especially in Australia, has been to the detriment on the game as a whole. The international game has suffered from neglect and little to no long term planning. This in turn has affected the games media and public profile.

Did the Aussies force us to switch to a summer season in order to accommodate Sky? Hence why proper tours can no longer be scheduled and why we are reduced to squeezing a few internationals in at the end of the domestic seasons as a mere afterthought?

Did the Aussies force us into ditching the GB brand and replacing it with England, to the detriment of the development of other home nations like Wales, Ireland and Scotland and the termination of the successful Ashes Series concept?

Are the Aussies responsible for us being next to useless as a competitive international RL force against them for the past 45 years? Hence the growth of Origin as their modern-day pinnacle?

Go and develop some historical perspective and quit blaming the Aussies for everything that's rotten with the state of RL in this country, just because it fits snugly with your blinkered pro-SL agenda.

Re: Time to wave the white flag. : Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:15 pm  

William Eve wrote:

Did the Aussies force us to switch to a summer season in order to accommodate Sky? Hence why proper tours can no longer be scheduled and why we are reduced to squeezing a few internationals in at the end of the domestic seasons as a mere afterthought?

Did the Aussies force us into ditching the GB brand and replacing it with England, to the detriment of the development of other home nations like Wales, Ireland and Scotland and the termination of the successful Ashes Series concept?

Are the Aussies responsible for us being next to useless as a competitive international RL force against them for the past 45 years? Hence the growth of Origin as their modern-day pinnacle?

Go and develop some historical perspective and quit blaming the Aussies for everything that's rotten with the state of RL in this country, just because it fits snugly with your blinkered pro-SL agenda.

A nice distortion of history there, but I expect nothing less from you.

If you think the Aussies would be coming over and playing a full tour you're more deluded than I thought. Quite why you think it makes a difference to the Aussies when our season is I have no idea.

As for GB, well of course the Aussies wouldn't play a GB tour down under a year or so ago would they. GB were up for it, why weren't the Aussies?

We changed to England to get the Sport England money. Aside from a name change it hasn't affected the other nations in the slightest, unless you're now in favour of farcical "heritage" and "residency" rules now?

The Aussies are, as you well know, responsible for the continued plundering of Pacific Island nations talent and more through State of Origin the diminishing of the international game. Lest you forget Australia are not the top RL nation. Even Cameron Smith thinks the Aussies have neglected the international game in favour of the domestic game and State of Origin.