Re: New Kicker Needed? : Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:37 am  

Yes congrats to Wigan &Wire,great wins and good performances.however we should not let it mask the general quality of super league playing and coaching.going back to the goal kicking another problem to consider is that Lilley,Sutty are not nailed on playing every week and Burrow may be spelled with Parcell so who do we turn to? Answers on a postcard McD

Re: We need a kicker : Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:06 pm  

tvoc wrote:

Yes, my bad. I apologise Chestnutrhino, missed that completely I'm afraid to say.

The point stands though, this time directed to Chesterrhino. If Leeds need another 75% kicker how far away was Sutcliffe from achieving your benchmark in 2016? How many more would he have needed to equal Sinfield's % for the SL winning seasons of 2008 and 2009?

I'm guessing he wouldn't have needed too many more to match the Sinfield %ages you've provided, although a small number of goals added to a relatively low number will upgrade the percentage considerably.

Another consideration is the situation under which kicks are taken. Barring the odd off-day, any decent kicker should do ok when there's little pressure, e.g. cruising past middle 8 opposition. A truer test might be to look at respective stats in games where the pressure is greater, say when the winning/losing margin is 6 points or fewer, or against the bigger teams, or in playoffs or finals (might be a while until Sutty and Lilley can be compared under the latter).

Re: New Kicker Needed? : Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:28 pm  

My point exactly.

Re: New Kicker Needed? : Mon Feb 20, 2017 6:44 pm  

I think it's unlikely that we will ever find a pressure kicker as good or even close to Sinny and should not expect that of our current crop.all we can expect is a success rate up with the other top teams hopefully or am I being too optimistic?

Re: We need a kicker : Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:15 pm  

Clearwing wrote:

I'm guessing he wouldn't have needed too many more to match the Sinfield %ages you've provided, although a small number of goals added to a relatively low number will upgrade the percentage considerably.

For Sutcliffe to have made the 75% benchmark (as requested here by the OP) he would have needed to either kick one of the goals he missed or kicked two more goals without anymore misses. By either measure I don't find that particularly deficient overall in his 1st season as the majority kicker - a good base at least. Unfortunately I don't have the equivalent figures for Sinfield which would have been 2003 after taking over from Ben Walker and Sinfield had been around the 1st team squad two years longer at that point in their respective careers.

Clearwing wrote:

Another consideration is the situation under which kicks are taken. Barring the odd off-day, any decent kicker should do ok when there's little pressure, e.g. cruising past middle 8 opposition. A truer test might be to look at respective stats in games where the pressure is greater, say when the winning/losing margin is 6 points or fewer, or against the bigger teams, or in playoffs or finals (might be a while until Sutty and Lilley can be compared under the latter).

Leeds weren't involved in too many of those in their SL winning season of 2008 where Sinfield made that earlier referenced 76% overall. Just the six games qualified and he was down at 58% in those compared to 78% in the rest. Sutcliffe as kicker was in seven tight games in 2016 hitting 71% in those against 76% in the rest. No-one is going to seriously conclude the latter is a more consistent kicker in tight games though. Sinfield of course famously kicked 21 from 21 in the successful Play-Off series of 2012.

So many variables, so little time. I merely set out to highlight Sutcliffe was only a smidge away in 2016 from making the asked for standard while it was being implied he's not going to be the answer.

Re: We need a kicker : Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:05 pm  

tvoc wrote:

For Sutcliffe to have made the 75% benchmark (as requested here by the OP) he would have needed to either kick one of the goals he missed or kicked two more goals without anymore misses. By either measure I don't find that particularly deficient overall in his 1st season as the majority kicker - a good base at least. Unfortunately I don't have the equivalent figures for Sinfield which would have been 2003 after taking over from Ben Walker and Sinfield had been around the 1st team squad two years longer at that point in their respective careers.

Leeds weren't involved in too many of those in their SL winning season of 2008 where Sinfield made that earlier referenced 76% overall. Just the six games qualified and he was down at 58% in those compared to 78% in the rest. Sutcliffe as kicker was in seven tight games in 2016 hitting 71% in those against 76% in the rest. No-one is going to seriously conclude the latter is a more consistent kicker in tight games though. Sinfield of course famously kicked 21 from 21 in the successful Play-Off series of 2012.

So many variables, so little time. I merely set out to highlight Sutcliffe was only a smidge away in 2016 from making the asked for standard while it was being implied he's not going to be the answer.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

Re: New Kicker Needed? : Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:43 pm  

Percentages with regards kicking success is always a bit dodgy because the degree of difficulty can vary so much. If Sutcliffe landed 10 from 10 but they were all in front of the posts and Lilley landed 8 from 10 but they were all from the touch line does that make Sutcliffe the better goalkicker?

The ones he's missed so far have been difficult ones for any kicker, if he starts to miss ones he really shouldn't be missing then his position in the role should be questioned.

Re: New Kicker Needed? : Wed Feb 22, 2017 5:33 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

Percentages with regards kicking success is always a bit dodgy because the degree of difficulty can vary so much. If Sutcliffe landed 10 from 10 but they were all in front of the posts and Lilley landed 8 from 10 but they were all from the touch line does that make Sutcliffe the better goalkicker?

The ones he's missed so far have been difficult ones for any kicker, if he starts to miss ones he really shouldn't be missing then his position in the role should be questioned.

Agreed. The measure of a good kicker is one who can kick them when they really matter. Infact it is usually the mid range ones like Hardaker had and missed for example to give us a point in the opening game of last season against wire. You always knew Sinfield would slot those in the pressure cooker moments.Finding a kicker that can deal with that kind of situation should be the priority long term.

Re: New Kicker Needed? : Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:36 pm  

Sutcliffe has landed at least one such pressure cooker goal himself - 29th June 2014 Leeds 32 - 31 Les Catalans Dragons. This one sticks as it was for both points that day.

Re: New Kicker Needed? : Wed Feb 22, 2017 7:41 pm  

tvoc wrote:

Sutcliffe has landed at least one such pressure cooker goal himself - 29th June 2014 Leeds 32 - 31 Les Catalans Dragons. This one sticks as it was for both points that day.

Wasn't that after the final whistle as well? Literally kick it or we lose.