Re: RL in General. : Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:24 am  

DHM wrote:

Because everyone is risk averse with the ball. You can make meters without moving the ball around and wait for the opposition to make a mistake in their own 40. If nobody makes a mistake then nothing happens because nobody is trying to actually create anything with the ball until they get in the opponents 20. Even then you see teams (over here too) play for another set. Like when England had the Aussies on their own line and kicked to the in goal to get a repeat set on the 4th bloody tackle. I would argue that it's not defences that cut space down, it's that non of the attacking play teams use is designed to create any space, it's a chess game where you look to "gain" small increments in pitch territory from a set of tackles. you make 60 meters from 5 drives and a kick the opposition only make 50 coming back the other way. How often does it seem to be a big deal that you start a set on your own 40? Jeez, if that's all we are trying to achieve during a game it's no wonder everyone is bored $h!tless watching.

That's an accurate assessment of the modern game. Of the two games I watched over the week end, the all blacks -Irish game plus the Aussie - kiwi match.
One thing that impressed me was the Aussie and all blacks passing game. Both sets of players seemed comfortable with the ball, all the passing was crisp and accurate. If you move the ball quickly with support players moving into good running lines eventually you will create scoring opportunities .
Surely that's not too hard to coach is it ?.

Re: RL in General. : Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:45 pm  

Backwoodsman wrote:

That's an accurate assessment of the modern game. Of the two games I watched over the week end, the all blacks -Irish game plus the Aussie - kiwi match.
One thing that impressed me was the Aussie and all blacks passing game. Both sets of players seemed comfortable with the ball, all the passing was crisp and accurate. If you move the ball quickly with support players moving into good running lines eventually you will create scoring opportunities .
Surely that's not too hard to coach is it ?.

Try doing that with the Aussie defence up and in your face. I want to see more passing too but the defences have got so much better it's virtually impossible unless we go down to 12 men.

We've done it before!!

Re: RL in General. : Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:14 pm  

I can't agree that the handling is better in RU. Yes the top fly halfs and scrum halfs can throw good balls, generally the rest of them are awful ball in hand - particularly the forwards who look like they're trying to empty a boat full of water with their arms when they're passing.
You've also got to take into account that the defences in Union, whilst not back 10, are certainly not putting any line speed on.

Re: RL in General. : Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:24 pm  

Superted wrote:

I can't agree that the handling is better in RU. Yes the top fly halfs and scrum halfs can throw good balls, generally the rest of them are awful ball in hand - particularly the forwards who look like they're trying to empty a boat full of water with their arms when they're passing.
You've also got to take into account that the defences in Union, whilst not back 10, are certainly not putting any line speed on.

I'd also say that the passes they have to make are often easier. They aren't having to make the same instant decisions as RL halves do as to which of the 3 or 4 runners to pass to and to do it so close to an advancing defence.

What does impress me in Union is some of the offloading off the floor. When done well it really speeds their game up. Though I suppose is a bit of an anachronism in their rules given than the defenders are supposed to immediately release the attacker.

I feel a bit sick now.

Re: RL in General. : Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:40 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I think there is too much looking back and saying wasn't it so much better in those days.

If you watch older stuff on youtube some of the defence is shambolic to the point of laughable.

Yes there were some very skilfull players but at the pace the game was being played and the terrible defence there was plenty of time to display those skills.

The old days any player with real pace had a distinct advantage - these days they all have real pace even the props.

Kallum Watkins will be as quick as 95% of all players who have ever played the game and he weighs near 16 stone - the players are just bigger, fitter and faster and that makes space on the field a premium.

I would agree a lot of players are becoming clones of a 6' 16st tackling machine - the view of modern coaches appears to be a damage limitation exercise i.e. If we don't conceed we cannot lose rather than if we score more than the opponents we also can't lose.

The quality of british coaches is also at an all time low and until that is rectified we will be serve up ragular helpings of turgid one dimensional rugby played by elite athlete that haven't even mastered the basics.

Contested scrums were a mess the hookers were almost laying flat on the ground with their feet outside of the scrum - bring them back doesn't seem to add any value as for the 5 metre rule you will see teams making negative yardage.

To sum up better coaching - watch the Aussies yesterday they did the basics really well - RL is a simple game that has a beauty in its simplicity

I agree with a lot of this. The Aussies we saw this weekend are just comfortably better than generations before. They are bigger, faster, stronger, more skilful, better prepared, better trained, better coached, with better tactics, better depth.

I think he NRL is of the highest standard an RL league has been and provides plenty of entertainment. I don't think there is a great deal wrong with the game itself, I think there needs to be tweaks and adjustments rather than real some of the more fundamental changes suggested here.

Our problem over here is that we simply don't have the depth of player, we have two few quality players and squads which are too small and players who play too many games. Our problems are with how we bring players in to the game and through in to the first team an keeping them there, rather than the rules on the field.

Saying that, Ive said before I would be interested to see the line-out replace the scrum as that would give us a competitive set-piece without all the nonsense of competitive scrums.

Re: RL in General. : Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:33 am  

I do get what some are saying about generally falling out with the game, as a Hull fan of 30 plus years , I've seen great times and some really dark days. It isn't the team I fell out of love with, it is the brand, RL in general. The craft and guile has largely disappeared and you now have wingers who are the size of, if not much bigger, than props used to be. Players like Long, Topliss, Millward,Schofield and Gregory , to name a few, were entertainers, Matty Smith is by some regarded as the best scrum half our English game has and , with all due respect, would not get anywhere near a top team of the previous eras.
This season, despite my having a season pass, I have found better things to do than watch muscle "outmuscle" muscle, and Hull have had a great season , so I think I can sympathise with a lot of opinion on here.
For what it is worth, amateur RL is thriving, in terms of interest and enthusiasm from fans, we need to bring back the guile and craft, how we do that is for people more clever than I to work out.

Re: RL in General. : Wed Nov 23, 2016 9:17 am  

HucknallLoiner wrote:

Try doing that with the Aussie defence up and in your face. I want to see more passing too but the defences have got so much better it's virtually impossible unless we go down to 12 men.

We've done it before!!

Defence looks better because attack is more predictable. You barely even see support runners now when forwards hit the ball up. Simple way to stop the defensive line getting set early is to offload. If you do that a few times then suddenly defenders not involved in the tackle can't retreat and get set.
I've seen a lot of Aussie games in the past, Origin included, where it's a boreathon for 70 minutes then the team losing suddenly starts actually playing with the ball. Defences suddenly look stretched and disorganised.
I maintain that as long as you can make good ground with 5 hit ups and a kick then that's how teams will play, safe, percentage rugby.

The ball moves a lot more in union because you can't make ground up the middle when big, 18 stone forwards, are set at the back foot of the ruck. You have to attack edges. There's also patterns that are designed to leave props or slow locks out wide defending space.

Re: RL in General. : Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:58 am  

Re RU it's interesting to note the number of ex-RL players who coach defence in RU.
Anthony Farrell & Sean Edwards being two prime examples.

Re: RL in General. : Wed Nov 23, 2016 12:42 pm  

Old Feller wrote:

Re RU it's interesting to note the number of ex-RL players who coach defence in RU.
Anthony Farrell & Sean Edwards being two prime examples.

Phil Larder being one of the first with Clive Woodward. Some of the same techniques for holding up the tackled player, thus slowing the speed of ruck ball are applicable from league.

Re: RL in General. : Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:00 pm  

Steadman, Tait, Ford, Forshaw, Lowes, the aussie Phil Blake , to name but a few the list is very long.
Eddie Jones used Jason Ryle (?) for the autumn internationals.