Re: McDermott out : Tue May 31, 2016 12:08 pm  

Ronzy wrote:

Just a quick query for discussion on the try scored by Clarke(?) from acting half. The two defenders on either side of marker were Cuthburtson and Galloway. These two have been caught out in a similar fashion on about five or six occasions to my knowledge. Coming from the NRL, are they expecting the marker defence to be much better and quite frankly, should the marker defence be better? To quote JC, just a musing.

Five or six occassions?? Either way is it not about time they realised the issues and tried to remedy them in training and stopped the problem by the time they reach the playing field?

Re: McDermott out : Tue May 31, 2016 12:13 pm  

Ronzy wrote:

Just a quick query for discussion on the try scored by Clarke(?) from acting half. The two defenders on either side of marker were Cuthburtson and Galloway. These two have been caught out in a similar fashion on about five or six occasions to my knowledge. Coming from the NRL, are they expecting the marker defence to be much better and quite frankly, should the marker defence be better? To quote JC, just a musing.

Cuthbertson was - sort of - at marker for the final try of the night IIRC, but despite not standing square still wasn't able to make the tackle on Clark (had a shot at his ankles but he stepped out of it).

Galloway was at A defender to the left of the ruck, and flew up to deal with the non-existent threat of the first receiver rather than spotting Cuthbertson struggling and tucking in to give him some help. Not the first time he's done that at A defender this season either, JJB being another common culprit.

The threat is always the ball. The bloke with it is the one you need to deal with. Rushing out of the line seems to be an attempt to make it look like it's not your problem. You had your man, not your fault if the dummy half then strolls through the gap you left because he's too quick for the markers.

Re: McDermott out : Tue May 31, 2016 12:57 pm  

At least the Warrington score from a tap last week required a pass so some improvement over the effort for the Gelling try at the DW Stadium. No not really, especially as same enthusiastic Leeds defender involved in both.

Re: McDermott out : Tue May 31, 2016 1:30 pm  

Andy Gilder wrote:

Cuthbertson was - sort of - at marker for the final try of the night IIRC, but despite not standing square still wasn't able to make the tackle on Clark (had a shot at his ankles but he stepped out of it).

Galloway was at A defender to the left of the ruck, and flew up to deal with the non-existent threat of the first receiver rather than spotting Cuthbertson struggling and tucking in to give him some help. Not the first time he's done that at A defender this season either, JJB being another common culprit.

The threat is always the ball. The bloke with it is the one you need to deal with. Rushing out of the line seems to be an attempt to make it look like it's not your problem. You had your man, not your fault if the dummy half then strolls through the gap you left because he's too quick for the markers.

Yep. With a reasonably quick PTB Clarke is more than capable of getting beyond the first marker, second marker would have a better chance but the hole he walked through to score was left by Galloway running straight up the pitch, passing Clarke coming the other way, for some truly mysterious reason (no attacker in sight).
We have some old boys in the middle who are so lacking in confidence pace wise that they are charging out of the defensive line rather than reacting to what the attack is doing. if you are agile and can change direction quickly then moving up quick can be very effective - although it's always good to spot a runner first rather than just run at nothing - but I could step Galloway with my feet tied together.
It highlights - along with the stupidity of Achurch for Dwyer's try - that it's not confidence or lack of effort it's just plain stupidity on defence or in some cases guys who are simply past it.

Re: McDermott out : Tue May 31, 2016 1:38 pm  

DHM wrote:

second marker would have a better chance

Second marker was Ferres IIRC, but he'd already indicated he was going right. All the more reason for Galloway to get his head up and tuck in a bit to give Cuthbertson (who was way too tight because he was late getting into position) a bit of cover.

Like you say, there are players trying to cheat in defence because they know they can't get where they need to be otherwise. Ablett did it on the right edge a few times early in the year, handing off a player on his inside to nobody in particular so he can start sliding towards the touchline.

The disease of conceding from tap penalties isn't just restricted to the first team. The 19s conceded one at Cas where four players had a shot at the ball carrier one pass out from a tap and he still got the ball down. Not one of them actually hit below the waist.

Re: McDermott out : Tue May 31, 2016 2:04 pm  

Galloway, Garbutt and Cuthbertson have spent their careers using strength rather than speed stopping big men running straight at them from the ruck. On the occasions where a smaller, more mobile man takes a dart the Galloway would have had Robbie Farah - lower to the ground, more nimble - to make the initial tackle - probably from marker - before the prop comes in to add force.

There's a reason 18st 6'4'' guys struggle against pace from the ptb, and there's a reason no other team defends every tackle with a prop on either side of the ruck with a big gap between them, and there's a reason that there's a position called hooker, where a smaller, quicker but still strong forward is involved in 40-50 tackles per game.

Re: McDermott out : Tue May 31, 2016 2:35 pm  

Ronzy wrote:

For the record, I can claim no inside knowledge but I have dealt with Caddick's other businesses extensively over the last few years. My experience would suggest to me that Caddick allows a good deal of autonomy within his various businesses and that he is not massively involved in day to day decision making. So, if mistakes have been made, I would suggest that the book stops with GH.

With regards to GH, if he has made mistakes, I would suggest that he is allowed more than a little latitude given the way the club has perfumed since he was involved. In a similar fashion, I think McDermott is entitled be afforded the benefit of the doubt.

I have to agree that the performances of the likes of Watkins, Hardaker and Hall before he was injured, are somewhat surprising, although it has been suggested to me that Hardaker has some personal issues.

Where I disagree is with regards to past performances, the frailties we are currently experiencing were evident last year and the year before. With some consistency over McDermott's tenure, we have struggled to convert red zone pressure into points and the marker defence has been found wanting. The structural deficiencies on Friday were laughable; we conceded two tries directly from acting half back, one of those without the attacking player being touched and another score came directly from a penalty tap. Any fully professional team can have no excuse for such basic errors.

I actually do agree with you that frailties were evident last year including a massive drop off after the Wembley win. I felt there were clear signs that several in the squad were getting on and past achieving their best on a weekly basis and I saw flaws in Watkins, Hardaker and Sutcliffe. The management took a gamble on Sutcliffe recovering from serious injury and being good enough to start at 6 and they also risked McGuire staying free from injury.

However nobody could have predicted the extent and length of the injuries nor the inability of the team to play to the previous structures without on field leaders telling them where to stand and what to do. There does seem a lack of rugby nouse in some of them. Laziness and poor awareness at marker have cost us so many points this year and I do not think the squad looks fit enough.

Last year Cuthbertson with his offloads was a key element in our success. Towards the end of last season there were also clear signs that opposition sides had begun to work out how to deal with him so this year he is nowhere near as effective which has led him to make silly offloads which lose possession.

So we have a series of factors which when added together have brought about this huge loss of confidence creating a negative momentum leading to our downfall. Perhaps the return to fuller strength and a period in the middle 8s will see us become competitive again but we still need to recuit some top quality playmaker/leadership.

Re: McDermott out : Tue May 31, 2016 2:39 pm  

nantwichexile wrote:

Five or six occassions?? Either way is it not about time they realised the issues and tried to remedy them in training and stopped the problem by the time they reach the playing field?

Do you not think they will have been working on this? My worry is that some of the players are not good enough without onfield mentors as they lack the rugby nouse to spot the dangers.

Re: McDermott out : Tue May 31, 2016 2:43 pm  

Juan Cornetto wrote:

I actually do agree with you that frailties were evident last year including a massive drop off after the Wembley win. I felt there were clear signs that several in the squad were getting on and past achieving their best on a weekly basis and I saw flaws in Watkins, Hardaker and Sutcliffe. The management took a gamble on Sutcliffe recovering from serious injury and being good enough to start at 6 and they also risked McGuire staying free from injury.

However nobody could have predicted the extent and length of the injuries nor the inability of the team to play to the previous structures without on field leaders telling them where to stand and what to do. There does seem a lack of rugby nouse in some of them. Laziness and poor awareness at marker have cost us so many points this year and I do not think the squad looks fit enough.

Last year Cuthbertson with his offloads was a key element in our success. Towards the end of last season there were also clear signs that opposition sides had begun to work out how to deal with him so this year he is nowhere near as effective which has led him to make silly offloads which lose possession.

So we have a series of factors which when added together have brought about this huge loss of confidence creating a negative momentum leading to our downfall. Perhaps the return to fuller strength and a period in the middle 8s will see us become competitive again but we still need to recuit some top quality playmaker/leadership.

Head coach still doing a first class job though?

Just asking.

Re: McDermott out : Tue May 31, 2016 2:52 pm  

Juan Cornetto wrote:

I actually do agree with you that frailties were evident last year including a massive drop off after the Wembley win. I felt there were clear signs that several in the squad were getting on and past achieving their best on a weekly basis and I saw flaws in Watkins, Hardaker and Sutcliffe. The management took a gamble on Sutcliffe recovering from serious injury and being good enough to start at 6 and they also risked McGuire staying free from injury.

You're deliberately missing Ronzy's point that the quoted frailties (a) red zone pressure, b) marker defence) have been apparent CONSISTENTLY through McDermott's tenure. With an exception that proves the rule over the first half of 2015 when Aiton was playing Booker the only answers he's seemed to have have been for a) Kev will do something, and for b) Jamie will do something. Without that - and also without the fig leaf of Hardaker's try-stopping cover defence - we look completely lost, but it's not like the potential problems have been hidden for the last few years.