Re: Tony Smith : Thu May 21, 2015 8:39 am  

FGB wrote:

For my money still the best coach in the league by some distance.

Whilst I can see your point, I think that he has underperformed at Warrington where he had the opportunity to put them at the top of the RL tree. Despite beating Leeds tice this season and being the only team that leeds have not looked like matching, they are still 7 pointe behind having only won 5 of their other 12 games.

My personal opinion is that he has gone as far as he can go with Warrington and both he and they need a fresh impetus

Re: Tony Smith : Thu May 21, 2015 10:51 am  

finglas wrote:

Whilst I can see your point, I think that he has underperformed at Warrington where he had the opportunity to put them at the top of the RL tree. Despite beating Leeds tice this season and being the only team that leeds have not looked like matching, they are still 7 pointe behind having only won 5 of their other 12 games.

My personal opinion is that he has gone as far as he can go with Warrington and both he and they need a fresh impetus

That's a very good point and one I agree with. If any year was to be Warrington's, it was 2011 in my opinion until you lot turned them over in the final play-off round. You may have won the overall comp, and played the play-offs brilliant, but they were the best team in the league that year.

If you don't think Smith is the best coach in the league, then who is?

My bias may come into it, but I think Wane has to be up there. Turned some average players into one's looking way above their 'perceived' level. I also like McDermott, and his record speaks for itself, but a few of you aren't so keen?

Re: Tony Smith : Thu May 21, 2015 11:18 am  

At present there is no team that is performing well. Last season I would have put Powell in the mix, at the moment I don't know, all have their positives but I think all could be questioned on their coaching skills. Wane seems to be a shouter /bully which can have positive effects in the short term but can be detrimental in the long term and I think Wigan are on the edge of that cycle.

Cunningham is looking ok, but a bit raw and Saints results have shown this. I wouldn't put any coach a being better at the moment, the question is more of which coaches have peaked and are now on a downward spiral and which ones can reinvent themselves to produce momentum.

Re: Tony Smith : Thu May 21, 2015 6:02 pm  

Comparing Smith's Leeds spell with his Warrington spell is tricky with regards to the team that was built during his time.

Hetherington will have played a significant part in the recruitment and we probably would've signed most of the players we did regardless of who was the coach. At Wire I believe he has pretty much full say on who joins and Simon Moran simply deals with the cheque book side of things.

I would say If you tried forming a combined team of academy graduates who played a significant amount of games and became REGULARS during HIS TIME there then it wouldn't make that impressive a reading and he's had 10 years combined at two very big clubs.

If you made a combined team of signings made during his time there then it would look very impressive but how much is that down to Hetherington's infulence at Leeds and Moran's chequebook at Warrington?

What will be interesting to see at Warrington is how they cope now with the immediate departure of Higham to Leigh. During his time at Warrington, their strength over over top teams has consistently been having two top hookers. Higham and Monaghan, and now Clark with the former until his departure this week. Clark no doubt obviously a great player but hasn't quite hit the notes there and if he was to get injured then they're really screwed and it impacts the performance of some other key players for them like Hill and Westwood by the lost at hooker they've experienced.

Re: Tony Smith : Thu May 21, 2015 8:55 pm  

Smith is massive on the technical side for sure but where he really turned Leeds around was on the psychological side - Leeds was a losing club with a losing mentality and he made them winners. That is the difference between a good coach and a great one.

Re: Tony Smith : Thu May 21, 2015 9:05 pm  

ThePrinter wrote:

Comparing Smith's Leeds spell with his Warrington spell is tricky with regards to the team that was built during his time.

Hetherington will have played a significant part in the recruitment and we probably would've signed most of the players we did regardless of who was the coach. At Wire I believe he has pretty much full say on who joins and Simon Moran simply deals with the cheque book side of things.

I would say If you tried forming a combined team of academy graduates who played a significant amount of games and became REGULARS during HIS TIME there then it wouldn't make that impressive a reading and he's had 10 years combined at two very big clubs.

If you made a combined team of signings made during his time there then it would look very impressive but how much is that down to Hetherington's infulence at Leeds and Moran's chequebook at Warrington?

What will be interesting to see at Warrington is how they cope now with the immediate departure of Higham to Leigh. During his time at Warrington, their strength over over top teams has consistently been having two top hookers. Higham and Monaghan, and now Clark with the former until his departure this week. Clark no doubt obviously a great player but hasn't quite hit the notes there and if he was to get injured then they're really screwed and it impacts the performance of some other key players for them like Hill and Westwood by the lost at hooker they've experienced.

Instead of thinking about theoretical combined teams of this and that make a list of the trophies he has won.

There's a lot on that list.

An excellent coach.

Re: Tony Smith : Thu May 21, 2015 9:20 pm  

G1 wrote:

Instead of thinking about theoretical combined teams of this and that make a list of the trophies he has won.

There's a lot on that list.

An excellent coach.

Reality is though, 6 seasons in charge at Warrington and no GF win to show for the teams they assembled is a disappointing return no matter how you look at it. If it wasn't Smith at Warrington and another coach so their was no emotional connection to his time at Leeds would you say no GF win was acceptable.....I doubt it.

At Leeds, yes the first year and a half were excellent at a time both Saints and Wigan had issues. Once Saints got their act together we fell massively behind them but managed to do them on one night in his last game.

Yes he's won trophies but he had teams that could do that, but those teams also lost a fair few, make a list of those....

Leeds

CCF - 2005
GF - 2005
CCsf - 2006 against a inexperienced in big games Hudds
Playoffs 2006 - similar vs Wire

Warrington

playoffs - 2011
Gf - 2012
Gf - 2013
CCsf - 2013 against an average Hull side
CCsf - 2014 against leeds could barely complete a set in the first half.

Considering that Wire's CC runs weren't the most toughest along the way then some context should be taken there. They beat Leeds twice in the final, but hell even Hull beat us in a final and we had to carefully tip-toe past Castleford to win it. Their other win against big game failure Huddersfield.

For the teams he had under his control he hasn't won as much as he should have done by a long chalk.

To go from LLS in 2011 with scoring over a thousand points to a very average W/L record in 2015 and a real fight to make the top 4 on their hands.....that's real backwards progress and one that wouldn't be tolerated by people on this board if it happened at Leeds.

Re: Tony Smith : Thu May 21, 2015 9:36 pm  

G1 wrote:

Instead of thinking about theoretical combined teams of this and that make a list of the trophies he has won.

Also it should be pointed out that the point of the thread was about Smith's teams in terms of recruitment/juniors under him because obviously a Wire fan is wondering how they'll move forward forward in terms of squad building.

Not whether he is a good coach so completely missing the point.

Re: Tony Smith : Fri May 22, 2015 7:20 am  

[quote="ThePrinter"
Not whether he is a good coach so completely missing the point.[/quote]
Yes, the poster focusing on how many trophies a coach wins is "missing the point".

Re: Tony Smith : Fri May 22, 2015 7:23 am  

ThePrinter wrote:

Reality is though, 6 seasons in charge at Warrington and no GF win to show for the teams they assembled is a disappointing return no matter how you look at it. If it wasn't Smith at Warrington and another coach so their was no emotional connection to his time at Leeds would you say no GF win was acceptable.....I doubt it.

How many GF wins did they have before Smith? How many CC wins?

If failing to win a GF is unacceptable then almost every coach every year is unacceptable.