Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:13 pm  

Andy Gilder wrote:

If you're going to use the full-back as your third pivot, then you play a converted half-back there (Lomax, Ratchford, Tomkins etc) and you expect them to come into the line and deliver killer passes.

If you're going to use your 13 (or arguably a prop like Graham or Cuthbertson) as that third pivot then you don't need a full-back that can do that. What you need then is one that can hit the line and either make breaks or trail up the middle of the field to support those who do.

At the moment, Leeds are more likely to have three central pivots and don't need a fourth ball-player out wide. What they do need are players willing to give the ball to the likes of Watkins and Moon in space, which is where I have more of an issue with Hardaker's occasionally sticky hands. No-one is expecting him to produce passes worthy of a top class half-back, but sometimes just recognising and servicing the threats he has outside him would be good.

When Webb was at his best pre-injury we had Sinfield, Maguire and Burrow as pivots with Webb making a 4th plus of course the creative offloading ability of Ali. So I think Cuthbertson is more a replacement for Ali than Webb. With Sinfield departing and possibly Burrow too IMO we need another creative back as, well though Sutcliffe is developing, he primarily has a running game.

Fullback is one of the most important attacking positions in the modern game because the FB gets the ball in space. All the back 3 especially the FB should and do make big metres because of kick returns. However they also have the opportunity, if they are good enough, to create space and tries for others in the Webb, Tomkins, Holmes and Harris mode.

Tomkins in 2013 from 394 carries scored 23 tries and made 21 assists. The previous year he scored 28 tries and made 33 assists from 465 carries. Contrast that with Hardaker who in 2013 scored only 9 tries and made only 8 assist in 431 carries and in 2014 just 8 tries and 13 assists from 400 carries. When Hardaker first broke into the Leeds first team at centre he was not noted for passing and many though him a bit greedy then.

His move to fullback has been a success but his game is based on brawn over brains. He dies with the ball far too often for my liking and can ignore teammates who are in space in favour of trying to make that extra tackle bust himself. Saying this does not diminish his excellent fielding of kicks, tackle busts and good metres and brave goal line defence. IMO he sometimes has positional issues too and he has tended to buy the dummy. So there is plenty of improvement to work on which if he can achieve will make him a bit special.

If we are to recruit a quality half back pivot then I see Sutcliffe moving to 13 to take on a Sinfield role which would mean we could afford not to have a pivot at FB.

Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:23 pm  

I think Hardaker has been excellent overall this season. I remember someone saying his "stats" weren't that great after the Cas game, the game in which he caught numerous high bombs in tricky conditions and made the miraculous try saver by sliding in and kicking to safety just as Cas were about to touch down, something the "stats" fail to mention. Hardaker isn't perfect, no player is, if we were to start listing Sinny's supposed shortcomings you'd be here till midnight. When the biggest games come around I will breathe a sigh of relief if Zak is available for them all. I think he is the type of player you only fully appreciate when he doesn't happen to be playing.

Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 6:46 pm  

Gotcha wrote:

Yeah, course it is. I haven't actually commented on his performance at all, just you saying his goal line defence has been poor all season. You were challenged by another poster to give these instances, but you ignored them.

My view is that Hardaker has not been has good as last season as yet, but think that is more likely down to what has happened off the field, and the injuries to the backs around him. The poor goal line defence all season line is just rubbish, as I said. I can see the point on two matches, but not in any other, hence why I said you were over reacting.

Quite a few people have actually spoken of his five year contract agreement. That is because of a known fact around the game, not because of a rumour. However, I have posted also quite a few times, that perhaps there has been agreement to go back on that deal for both party's. It might well be me that said the clubs plans were for him to be moved to stand off in the future, but that came after a conversation with McDermott, so I am happy enough to accept that was the clubs plans at the time.

Again, the comment that he can't pass, is absolute nonsense. He has on quite a few occasions put out passes of top line quality. However, I do accept that he has held on a lot of occasions where passes should have been made, and think that cloudy's some posters judgement.

I maintain, I don't have favourites, and never will, my view will always be just on recent form.

how would you rate his effort on Tim Smith in the last game at Headingley?

Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:22 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

how would you rate his effort on Tim Smith in the last game at Headingley?

I'd say Singleton is at fault there in his over exhuberance to slide to the left which opens up a space for Smith. Hardaker could've gone all in for Smith but there's a Wakey player (Scruton?) who he could've been a possible pass inside for Smith for Hardaker to consider (the Scruton option didn't then materlise as Aiton blocked him off the ball as he's trying to run through a gap to support Smith.)

All in all, Hardaker could've flung himself at Smith but appeared wary of a potential pass to the inside man....could've been stopped but certainly not poor play. Comes back to my point about people now unrealistically expecting him to stop all traffic that runs towards him.

Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 7:35 pm  

Juan Cornetto wrote:

When Webb was at his best pre-injury we had Sinfield, Maguire and Burrow as pivots with Webb making a 4th plus of course the creative offloading ability of Ali. So I think Cuthbertson is more a replacement for Ali than Webb. With Sinfield departing and possibly Burrow too IMO we need another creative back as, well though Sutcliffe is developing, he primarily has a running game.

Fullback is one of the most important attacking positions in the modern game because the FB gets the ball in space. All the back 3 especially the FB should and do make big metres because of kick returns. However they also have the opportunity, if they are good enough, to create space and tries for others in the Webb, Tomkins, Holmes and Harris mode.

Tomkins in 2013 from 394 carries scored 23 tries and made 21 assists. The previous year he scored 28 tries and made 33 assists from 465 carries. Contrast that with Hardaker who in 2013 scored only 9 tries and made only 8 assist in 431 carries and in 2014 just 8 tries and 13 assists from 400 carries. When Hardaker first broke into the Leeds first team at centre he was not noted for passing and many though him a bit greedy then.

His move to fullback has been a success but his game is based on brawn over brains. He dies with the ball far too often for my liking and can ignore teammates who are in space in favour of trying to make that extra tackle bust himself. Saying this does not diminish his excellent fielding of kicks, tackle busts and good metres and brave goal line defence. IMO he sometimes has positional issues too and he has tended to buy the dummy. So there is plenty of improvement to work on which if he can achieve will make him a bit special.

If we are to recruit a quality half back pivot then I see Sutcliffe moving to 13 to take on a Sinfield role which would mean we could afford not to have a pivot at FB.

A lot you've said there I'd agree with, I don't agree with the buying the dummy bit though, there has been a couple of occasions he's stopped 2 on 1 situations (admittedly this was last season) by not buying the dummy so I think that comments a bit of a strange one.

Just to gonna throw this one out there to cause a stir. Only game we've lost this season was the only game hardaker hasn't played in, I'm not saying he's making a ridiculous impact, just wanted to throw in there to watch several people spit at at each other ahah

Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 8:41 pm  

Claypitrhino wrote:

Just to gonna throw this one out there to cause a stir. Only game we've lost this season was the only game hardaker hasn't played in, I'm not saying he's making a ridiculous impact, just wanted to throw in there to watch several people spit at at each other ahah

Think his absence had an effect and played a role in our defeat but mostly the impact it will have had on the week leading up to the game in training for the squad and management. Hardaker appears to be a popular member of the squad so his teammates wondering whether or not their starting FB and mate might be on his way out of the club can't have led to the best preparation. Add to it McDermott will have spent quite a bit of time in contact with GH who was in Australia that week trying to sort this mess out instead of being fully focused on the match too.

Think we missed him badly when he had his 5 match ban last year also, the 2 point lost to Hudds at Headingley when BJB had a shocker defensively would've been a victory for us with Hardaker there. I think the 2nd homophobic incident with Flanagan against Saints didn't help our end to the season either as anothe dark cloud went over the club with GH on the defensive taking on the RFL in statements.

Re: 2015 player ratings : Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:09 am  

Hardaker's a poor passer of the ball for the simple reason that he far too rarely even seems to think of passing. Identifying two good passes in a season and a half pretty much says it all.

The suggestion that he plays the way he does because of the way the rest of the side is structured is rubbish. He hits the line looking almost without exception for how he can make a break/make the most metres. That makes him very good at returning kicks and making big inroads into the defence. The physical side of running into defenders at speed is a huge facet to his game, and not one that smaller fullbacks such as Tomkins or Webb would even try to copy. I'd pick him for England now and have Tomkins in the halves for the reason that what he's good at is hugely important.

But to be a very special player he needs more. More of a passing game would make him a more dangerous player because defenders wouldn't automatically assume he'll just run at/round them. That in turn would make the running option more dangerous, as well as open up space for others if he passed the ball.

Steve Hampson was great defensively but rubbish in attack. Gary Jack was OK, but he played 30 years ago and neither would be mentioned in the same breath as more modern fullbacks. Valid comparisons against the best would be the likes of Minichiello, Hayne, Inglis, Lockyer and Slater. All of these guys at their peak were far better all round fullbacks than Hardaker, because whilst they could run themselves (Hayne and Inglis are better at what Zak does even without taking into account passing), they also had a rugby brain and the ability to pass to levels far higher than yet shown by Hardaker.

There's a chance Hardaker will develop a passing game, but I'm far from convinced. I can't think of a single example of a player of his type ever developing a passing game, particularly given his age.

Re: 2015 player ratings : Thu Apr 23, 2015 9:00 am  

Andy Gilder wrote:

If you're going to use the full-back as your third pivot, then you play a converted half-back there (Lomax, Ratchford, Tomkins etc) and you expect them to come into the line and deliver killer passes.

If you're going to use your 13 (or arguably a prop like Graham or Cuthbertson) as that third pivot then you don't need a full-back that can do that. What you need then is one that can hit the line and either make breaks or trail up the middle of the field to support those who do.

At the moment, Leeds are more likely to have three central pivots and don't need a fourth ball-player out wide. What they do need are players willing to give the ball to the likes of Watkins and Moon in space, which is where I have more of an issue with Hardaker's occasionally sticky hands. No-one is expecting him to produce passes worthy of a top class half-back, but sometimes just recognising and servicing the threats he has outside him would be good.

It worked ok with Webb and we had three pivots and a centre in Senior every bit as destructive as Watkins or Moon

On the Smith try even considering all the available options making no attempt was never going to stop the try?

Re: 2015 player ratings : Thu Apr 23, 2015 7:20 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

It worked ok with Webb and we had three pivots and a centre in Senior every bit as destructive as Watkins or Moon

On the Smith try even considering all the available options making no attempt was never going to stop the try?

It wasn't a case of not trying, it was a case of Hardaker put on the brakes whilst shifting left and then put his weight on his right foot.....Smith went left, it happens. If you want a definition of a FB not trying just look at what Craig Hall produced for Matty Smith's try tonight, that is truly POOR FB play.

Re: 2015 player ratings : Thu Apr 23, 2015 8:47 pm  

What we have got is by far and away the best full back in Superleague. Every other club would do a swap for Zak. I think this forum has too many people that have hidden agendas regarding Zak, or totally unrealistic expectations about the lad. I'll be honest, I've never seen a young player scrutinised and criticised by his own fans as much as Hardaker. It's pointless comparing him to NRL players, this is Superleague, and as long we have the best player in every position we are going to be successful. Wigan Pier was flooded last week with ejaculate following the signing of Ratboy, yet we still have the glass half full mob on here looking for absolute perfection when it is totally unrealistic.