Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:49 am  

Him wrote:

I think Hardaker's unwillingness to pass the ball is being overdone a bit. Most of the time when he gets the ball its as a 3rd man play going from left to right. That 3rd man play on the right usually hasn't been as fluidly performed as on the left and, partly due to where Hardaker is receiving the ball, he often hasn't had a decent pass option available.

I'm not trying to say that's the case all the time, and there have been times he should've passed, but I don't think the issue is quite as bad as being made out.

I don't think it is either, and that is not a biase, it's just simply what is in front of the eyes. The way we play is not the same as the way we played with Webb in the side. The roles of other players have changed since then, and the way we attack is completely different. Just as I never held Moon responsible for Halls reduction in tries, and thought that was wrong to blame him.

People are looking too much at what Webb did, and ignored his faults, rather than concentrating on the team game and the importance of certain players in that team performance.

Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:53 am  

Gotcha wrote:

I don't think it is either, and that is not a biase, it's just simply what is in front of the eyes. The way we play is not the same as the way we played with Webb in the side. The roles of other players have changed since then, and the way we attack is completely different. Just as I never held Moon responsible for Halls reduction in tries, and thought that was wrong to blame him.

People are looking too much at what Webb did, and ignored his faults, rather than concentrating on the team game and the importance of certain players in that team performance.

Yep. Plus Webb usually attacked on our left. It was a ridiculous left hand side that often contained McGuire, Webb, Lauitiiti, Senior & Donald.

Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:15 am  

Gotcha wrote:

Hardaker will never be a Webb or a Lomax for passing (but considering the number of forward in Webbs later years I am comfortable with that), but they will never be him for defence and metres. Hardakers passing is better than Ratchfords, and think people see things that are not there with Ratchford, as his qualities are the same sort of things as Hardaker.

As for passes, one that immediately springs to mind is Warrington at home last season with Briscoes try. Had that come from McGuire, Sal for example would have cum in his pants. And why I said to say he "can't pass" is rubbish, his problem if it is actually a problem is more down to when.

I agree that Hardaker is better than Ratchford, and he's not someone I rate that highly but he does pass the ball well coming into the line, his pass to Monaghan for his try on Thursday was superb, and I remember Hardaker made that (excellent) pass to Briscoe against Warrington in Feb 14, which is why I said I can't remember a quality pass Hardaker has made in the last 12 months, there was a nice offload to Watkins at Hudds not long after that, but there's been nothing since. It just frustrates me because every other aspect of his game is superb, a quality passing game is the only thing missing from his arsenal.
It's not just about what Webb did, it's about what the other quality FBs in RL have had and continue to have, players like Slater, Lockyer, Bowen at his peak, Brett Stewart from the NRL, and then you have the likes of Hodgson, Tomkins, and Webb over here, they're the players Hardaker should be looking at and trying to emulate.

Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:22 am  

Charlie Sheen wrote:

I agree that Hardaker is better than Ratchford, and he's not someone I rate that highly but he does pass the ball well coming into the line, his pass to Monaghan for his try on Thursday was superb, and I remember Hardaker made that (excellent) pass to Briscoe against Warrington in Feb 14, which is why I said I can't remember a quality pass Hardaker has made in the last 12 months, there was a nice offload to Watkins at Hudds not long after that, but there's been nothing since. It just frustrates me because every other aspect of his game is superb, a quality passing game is the only thing missing from his arsenal.
It's not just about what Webb did, it's about what the other quality FBs in RL have had and continue to have, players like Slater, Lockyer, Bowen at his peak, Brett Stewart from the NRL, and then you have the likes of Hodgson, Tomkins, and Webb over here, they're the players Hardaker should be looking at and trying to emulate.

There not the players he should be looking to emulate at all. As I said it is a team game, and if the team play a certain way then players do the job they are supposed to. None of those players are as good as Hardaker defensively which is important to Leeds play.

By the way look how many times Inglis passes the ball in a game. Again a fullback doing a different job to those he might be compared to.

Two of the best fullbacks I have ever seen were Gary Jack and Steve Hampson. Neither had a recognised passing game. But both were vital to the teams they played for. Look at Wellens for Saints in his peak at fullback, rarely passed a ball.

Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:44 am  

Gotcha wrote:

There not the players he should be looking to emulate at all. As I said it is a team game, and if the team play a certain way then players do the job they are supposed to. None of those players are as good as Hardaker defensively which is important to Leeds play.

By the way look how many times Inglis passes the ball in a game. Again a fullback doing a different job to those he might be compared to.

Two of the best fullbacks I have ever seen were Gary Jack and Steve Hampson. Neither had a recognised passing game. But both were vital to the teams they played for. Look at Wellens for Saints in his peak at fullback, rarely passed a ball.

I'm not disputing his defensive abilities, and I take your point about it being a team game and each player having a role within that team, and whilst I don't expect Hardaker to be our most creative player, I would still expect him to be able to offer some creativity from full back, and I fail to see how Hardaker improving his passing and decision making wouldn't benefit the team as a whole.

Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:44 am  

If you're going to use the full-back as your third pivot, then you play a converted half-back there (Lomax, Ratchford, Tomkins etc) and you expect them to come into the line and deliver killer passes.

If you're going to use your 13 (or arguably a prop like Graham or Cuthbertson) as that third pivot then you don't need a full-back that can do that. What you need then is one that can hit the line and either make breaks or trail up the middle of the field to support those who do.

At the moment, Leeds are more likely to have three central pivots and don't need a fourth ball-player out wide. What they do need are players willing to give the ball to the likes of Watkins and Moon in space, which is where I have more of an issue with Hardaker's occasionally sticky hands. No-one is expecting him to produce passes worthy of a top class half-back, but sometimes just recognising and servicing the threats he has outside him would be good.

Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:23 pm  

Would still have Peacock as one of the top five performers this season especially in recent weeks and whatever certain individuals think about Hardaker , he is the best full back in super league by far . Must admit though the original 5 posted have been exeptional , credit especially to Ward (who looked like he was robbing a living last year) for turning in consistent performances week after week . Also a special mention to Singleton who could turn out to be something special in 3 or 4 years time . On the downside we have not come up against great opposition .

Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 12:45 pm  

ploinerrhino wrote:

... On the downside we have not come up against great opposition .

But we have played every other team in Superleague at least once?
So where is this great opposition going to come from?

Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:52 pm  

If you could combine Hardakers broken field running/defence with Webbs attacking play/passing, that would be one very special player

Both great full backs but very different quality's

Re: 2015 player ratings : Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:59 pm  

I'm quite happy to see that our 23 year old full back has something in his game to work on, I just hope he does. This is what, his 3rd season at full back? There's strengths in his game he needs to cement as well. I'm also happy that at the half way point(ish) we're 6 points clear with most of our players having room for improvement over 80 minutes. It would be worrying if everyone was saying we have never played as well but were 6 points off the summit