Re: Hunslet friendly : Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:13 am  

Gotcha wrote:

That isn't exactly true. During his reign he had to replace the likes of Furner, Adamson, Dunneman, Calderwood, Mathers, McDermott, which is still a fair few players. He has also had to change a lot of players at Warrington over last couple of years.

Not exactly true, no. Everyone holds opinions on the qualities of the Leeds players you've listed and, while I wouldn't want to belittle any of them, the contributions of most pale beside the likes of Peacock, JJB, McGuire, Burrow and Sinfield, all of whom it would seem B McD will be tasked with replacing. And granted, Smith's lost some good players at Warrington but then again he's won nowt since he had to cope without the likes of Briers and Morley. That could change but until it does the jury remains out for me.

Re: Hunslet friendly : Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:29 pm  

Clearwing wrote:

Not exactly true, no. Everyone holds opinions on the qualities of the Leeds players you've listed and, while I wouldn't want to belittle any of them, the contributions of most pale beside the likes of Peacock, JJB, McGuire, Burrow and Sinfield, all of whom it would seem B McD will be tasked with replacing. And granted, Smith's lost some good players at Warrington but then again he's won nowt since he had to cope without the likes of Briers and Morley. That could change but until it does the jury remains out for me.

I wasn't a big Smith fan but he has won 2 GF's and 3 CCs both with clubs that hadn't won either for over 30 years. I am not sure what more he has to prove to be honest. His win % with both clubs is very impressive as is/was the style of rugby he encourages. The Rhinos were in a better state when he left than when he arrived as I am sure Warrington will be. He has virtually rebuilt the whole side and still won stuff.

Re: Hunslet friendly : Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:47 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I wasn't a big Smith fan but he has won 2 GF's and 3 CCs both with clubs that hadn't won either for over 30 years. I am not sure what more he has to prove to be honest. His win % with both clubs is very impressive as is/was the style of rugby he encourages. The Rhinos were in a better state when he left than when he arrived as I am sure Warrington will be. He has virtually rebuilt the whole side and still won stuff.

In the main I'd agree. But as it stands, the one thing he hasn't done is rebuild a successful team. He's rebuilt unsuccessful ones, in one case with the benefit of a golden generation of youngsters, in the other an open cheque book. But, like McDermott, he has a challenge on his hands.

Re: Hunslet friendly : Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:14 pm  

Clearwing wrote:

In the main I'd agree. But as it stands, the one thing he hasn't done is rebuild a successful team. He's rebuilt unsuccessful ones, in one case with the benefit of a golden generation of youngsters, in the other an open cheque book. But, like McDermott, he has a challenge on his hands.

But he has though, it just takes a couple of years as you would expect. The squad he won the League with at Leeds in 2004, had at least 9 or 10 changes to it to the one he won again with in 2007. It is incorrect to say he can't rebuild a team and be successful.

The team McDermott has had doesn't have as many changes as that to it without winning in 2013 compared to the winners in 2011 and 2012.

Re: Hunslet friendly : Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:42 pm  

Gotcha wrote:

But he has though, it just takes a couple of years as you would expect. The squad he won the League with at Leeds in 2004, had at least 9 or 10 changes to it to the one he won again with in 2007. It is incorrect to say he can't rebuild a team and be successful.

The team McDermott has had doesn't have as many changes as that to it without winning in 2013 compared to the winners in 2011 and 2012.

I'm not claiming McDermott has come anywhere near rebuilding a team - yet. Ten changes between 04 and 07? I'll have to check the old team sheets (my memory's poop) but if what you've put is numerically accurate and you're talking decent quality players that were replaced then I'll concede the point.

Re: Hunslet friendly : Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:57 pm  

Clearwing wrote:

I'm not claiming McDermott has come anywhere near rebuilding a team - yet. Ten changes between 04 and 07? I'll have to check the old team sheets (my memory's poop) but if what you've put is numerically accurate and you're talking decent quality players that were replaced then I'll concede the point.

Whether they are decent quality is all about opinion surely. The point is the squad throughout the seasons had changed that much, and quite a lot of players were replaced. I already named some of them above, and for me certainly Furner, Adamson, Calderwood, Dunneman, and McDermott would get into our current 17.

Re: Hunslet friendly : Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:36 pm  

Really though it was GH that rebuilt the team. He's the one who went and got the Peacock's, Kylie's, Donald's, Webb's Ellis'. It's much easier to rebuild a team when you're given the tools to do it with like Smith was.

Whilst not as obvious because some players are still the same, the side we have now is quite different to what we had by the end of McClennen's reign just before McDermott took over. Hardaker, Briscoe, Watkins, Moon, Aiton, Stevie Ward and Sutcliffe are obvious as new names compared to then but you've also got to remember a few are/have had to be used differently to how they were. Delaney an obvious one, McGuire's had to become a very different halfback and change his game since that knee injury and McDermott inherited a very different McGuire to the ones his predecessors got to enjoy. Sinfield, well the debate rumbles on, personally think he was right, the way teams pick an extra big guy at loose then I don't think he could've been used there continuously and been in any type of knock to be playing now so IMO a change that needed to be made to get more years out of him. Burrow moved to hooker. JJB similar to McGuire in terms of him slowing down compared to what he was and is better being used in the middle as opposed to his old 2nd row gigs under predecessors. Really only Peacock, Leuluai. Hall and Ablett are playing the same roles they were from when McClennen left and McDermott took over. From our playoff exit in 2010 then Webb, Donald, Smith, Senior, Eastwood, Buderus, Diskin, Burgess, Lauitiiti had all left within a further 2 seasons, Bailey, Kirke and Clarkson can be now added to that and players like BJB, Lunt, McShane, Hauraki, Griffin have come and gone inbetween. I think that's a fair old turnaround.

A rebuild isn't always just new faces but evolution of existing ones.

Re: Hunslet friendly : Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:22 pm  

Sal Paradise wrote:

I didn't just mention Alex Ferguson I also mentioned Wayne Bennett maybe he is more relevant?

He becomes more relevant once I disected the Ferguson comparisons I see. You mentioned Bennett's name once, you talked about Ferguson and listed which players he wouldn't let have such a strong influence on things.....only natural I talked about the Ferguson comparison is it not?

Sal Paradise wrote:

Same principle he wasn't afraid to move star players on when he thought it was appropriate - there was only ever one boss when Wayne was in charge.

That is assuming that McDermott wants to move on star players. What evidence do you have that he wants rid of Sinfield, McGuire and co?

Sal Paradise wrote:

On Ferguson the idea that he was one game away from the sack is media speculation nothing more.

Possibly, but given the fickle nature of football and that he wasn't really set the world alight over there it could've well happened. In later years United owners said they never entertained the thought of sacking him.......easy to say a decade or so later when he's made the club the biggest in the country.

Sa Paradise wrote:

On Smith his win % is 72% at Warrington compared to McDermott's 64% at Leeds. He inherited a club with little junior quality, understandable when you consider Warrington are competing with Wigan and Saints for juniors,

Really? Have you jumped back several decades where players only join clubs in a certain area? Good job Sinfield and Watkins are from Yorkshire isn't it.

Sal Paradise wrote:

he has sorted that and it is starting to yield some results.

No trophies in two seasons and a squad that doesn't contain many academy lads. Yeah the results are overwhelming

Sal Paradise wrote:

He managed to win trophies for the first time in 35 years.

How many of the previous coaches had Simon Moran's money? At least you can say he's better than Lowes and Cullen.

Sal Paradise wrote:

He inherited a team even more reliant on Briers than Leeds are on Sinfield so he has had to sort that.

And judging by their lowest league placing in any of his full seasons in charge then I say he hasn't dealt with it that great. Is Bridge his halfback or centre? Is Ratchford his halfback this week or centre or FB or Loose? Is O'Brien going on loan to yet another SL club? Myler....rumour had him going out on loan this year, hardly ripped it up without Briers around.

Sal Paradise wrote:

Let's see if McDermott can replace Sinfield successfully over the next two years.

Probably not, even if he has someone who plays the halfback role better, it's almost certain Sinfield's leadership will be next to impossible to replace, for McDermott or any coach who tried.

Sal Paradise wrote:

McDermott unlike Smith inherited a top structure and a team that had won 3 of the previous 4 grand finals.

And one that some on here have said on here for several years is well past their best and needed putting out to pasture after the trophyless season of 2010. Smith inherits former Man Of Steel winners with regularity like Peacock, Hodgson and now Clark.

Sal Paradise wrote:

They have both won 3 of the major trophies during their tenure - what is the score between them in major finals?

Oh so you are deciding that the CC is a major trophy again after it meant little around Aug/Sept 2014.

Sal Paradise wrote:

How do you judge a coach on trophy wins alone or whether they have left the club in a better state then when they joined.

Could another coach done what Smith did, yes IMO (maybe not in as much style)
Could we have done what we did without Sinfield, Burrow, McGuire....players who were here before Smith and after Smith, no.
Could we do it without Hetherington, no.

Sal Paradise wrote:

Noble is still rated as one one the best coaches in the SL era yet he left Bradford devoid of any meaningful youth structure and broke.

Blaming Noble for Bradford's financial downfall??? Really???

Sal Paradise wrote:

Smith's legacy at Warrington will be a positive one

It will be, but considering what went previously under Lowes and Cullen and Plange then the only way was up. If he doesn't achieve a GF win ther then IMO it'll be one of the greatest underachievements by a coach in RL history.

Smith had 4 years at Leeds when the "Golden Generation" were at their prime age and he had great signings to work with. Disregarding his 2009 season at Wire then he's had 5 full seasons there where again he's probably been the most blessed coach in terms of signings made for him.

What's he got to show for having 2 teams at such an incredibly strong recruitment period in their history in terms of league success? 2 GF's and 2 LLS in 9 seasons......and only one of each in the last 8 of those seasons as coach of two of the strongest looking teams in the comp at the given time. 2007 we were second but we pulled off a worldy once in a decade or so final performance that arguably wouldn't have happened had the team not knew he was departing and his 2011 LLS meant little once Sinfield slotted over that penatly at the Halliwell Jones.

Sal Paradise wrote:

not sure the same will be said of McDermott at Leeds.

Probably not but he wasn't replacing Lowes, Cullen and Plange struggling to reach playoff places. Still he's won 4 trophies in 4 years at Leeds.....which is the same amount as the messiah Smith manage with a younger, better and better invested squad whose only real opposition was Saints and a Bradford team on their last hurrah. At least McDermott's going up against 4/5 teams around an even playing field to Leeds.

Sal Paradise wrote:

What position did Sinfield play in the GF wins of 2007, 2008, 2009 and the whole of 2010 - you seemed to have overlooked that?

He played loose forward. But the point is that he managed to get his way of playing stand off by demanding it and the coach buckling to him.......so how come the Messiah Smith played him there in finals?


A final note on Smith and one for people to think about....

People say Smith turned this Leeds team into champions......truth is neither were champions before that 2004 season.

Since then this Leeds team have made SL champions out of two other coaches twice, one of whom is thought of as clueless by quite a few.

Smith has failed after nearly 6 seasons to turn Warrington into SL champions even though they have started many of those seasons as one of, if not, the biggest favourite.

So really, who made who a champion?

Re: Hunslet friendly : Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:27 am  

I think the undervaluation of Smith is very odd. BM has done better than I'd expected, but if the players apparently made Smith a winner why not the same for BM? Personally I'd say 2004 created a partial winning mentality but 2007 gave the same players the belief that they really were good enough to beat all comers.

This year if everyone stays fit I think we've got a chance at all comps. Once Peacock goes the whole pack looks underwhelming, so if he sticks to retiring at the end of the season, 2016 will be a major challenge. Then we'll most likely have to replace Sinfield, Burrow and McGuire within another 2-3 years - not to mention the likes of Leuluai, JJB, Delaney and Ablett. Managing the team through that period is a major challenge in anyone's book. If BM does so with reasonable success and we come out the other end in good shape, then he should rightly go down in history as the best coach we've had.

Re: Hunslet friendly : Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:03 am  

BrisbaneRhino wrote:

I think the undervaluation of Smith is very odd. BM has done better than I'd expected, but if the players apparently made Smith a winner why not the same for BM? Personally I'd say 2004 created a partial winning mentality but 2007 gave the same players the belief that they really were good enough to beat all comers.

This year if everyone stays fit I think we've got a chance at all comps. Once Peacock goes the whole pack looks underwhelming, so if he sticks to retiring at the end of the season, 2016 will be a major challenge. Then we'll most likely have to replace Sinfield, Burrow and McGuire within another 2-3 years - not to mention the likes of Leuluai, JJB, Delaney and Ablett. Managing the team through that period is a major challenge in anyone's book. If BM does so with reasonable success and we come out the other end in good shape, then he should rightly go down in history as the best coach we've had.

Tbh I don't think McDermott will be around to see those changes. At most he'll be here in 2016 for possibly the post Peacock/Leuluai era but wouldn't be surprised if this is his last year.

When he started back in 2011 he looked like the guy charged with dealing with overseeing the departure of a host of legends. 4/5 years later it's more a case that his job was to squeeze out the last bit of success that the Golden Generation had in them.

I think that's his legacy, especially the CC....whatever tactical and technical flaws he has compared to his predecessors at least he can say he guided our best ever decade to their missing piece.

I'm usually not a fan of Danny Lockwood but he's wrote a great piece in the League Weekly this week about his attending the Golden Generation dinner last week. One key point he made is, would this night, this celebration since August.....would it have ever happened had we lost to Cas?

We would've of course celebrated this team as time passed......but would we and the club have been able to do it as much without the events of 23/08/14???