Re: Sam Burgess : Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:50 am  

Just a point on the Leeds/Yorkshire Carnegie thing.

It's very much a created entity, formed from the merger of the old Headingley and Roundhay clubs. The problem with that is that there are very few people with any great loyalty to it as an institution, either locally or further afield. Those involved with other clubs at a lower level will continue to put their own team first, and might have Carnegie as their second team if at all. There isn't a generation of kids who have grown up watching Carnegie first and foremost, and supporting them.

In a way, it suffers from the same issues that dogged the likes of Crusaders in SL. It's a team dropped into an area where there is some interest in the game, but with no great attachment to the people around it. The Yorkshire rebranding is a farce, IMO. You're not going to get loads of fans from Hull Ionians, or Pocklington, or Halifax following Carnegie home and away just because they're a Yorkshire team. Why should they? They have no affiliation to it, and a loyalty instead to their own club.

It's like merging Bulls and Halifax, then trying to market it to people in York as "their" team.

The exodus of top flight sides out of London by the way was precipitated by the need to find stadia that were suitable for the professional era. Wasps were based at Sudbury, but moved into Loftus Road when they were bought by Chris Wright (former owner of Chrysalis Records and QPR). The old ground at Sudbury has been redeveloped for housing, and they've since been based at Wycombe. London Irish were at Sunbury on Thames, but moved into the Madejski as tenants because Reading was the nearest place willing to accommodate them, likewise Saracens at Watford.

It's not because Union was looking to spread out of London (although in inner city London schools league has made massive inroads over the last 10-15 years), it's simply because those clubs formerly based in and around London have needed to find stadia suitable for the professional era and have ended up as football club tenants (Saracens apart, who have built their own ground off the back of Nigel Wray's substantial personal wealth),

For much that league may envy union's international setup and media profile, its club game in England is underwritten mostly by the largesse of a small number of wealthy individuals. Derek Richardson at Wasps, Nigel Wray at Saracens, Bruce Craig at Bath, Semore Kurdi at Newcastle (who recently took over Gateshead) are all in their own way "doing a Koukash". Without them and the RFU's ridiculous ban on selecting foreign based players for England, the club game over here would be bereft of star players and signing the likes of Burgess an absolute impossibility.

Re: Sam Burgess : Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:28 am  

Andy Gilder wrote:

For much that league may envy union's international setup and media profile, its club game in England is underwritten mostly by the largesse of a small number of wealthy individuals. Derek Richardson at Wasps, Nigel Wray at Saracens, Bruce Craig at Bath, Semore Kurdi at Newcastle (who recently took over Gateshead) are all in their own way "doing a Koukash". Without them and the RFU's ridiculous ban on selecting foreign based players for England, the club game over here would be bereft of star players and signing the likes of Burgess an absolute impossibility.

And that is different to every professional sport in the land because ... ?

Also, what you described as the foundation of the Leeds team is true and applies equally to Newcastle, one made it succeed, one clearly hasn't, its bizarre and even the professionals don't know why - I'll fly a kite here and suggest regional identity, you could dress a tiddlywinks team in black and white and blag some free coverage in The Chronicle and Geordies would turn up to watch them.

Re: Sam Burgess : Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:30 am  

southern_rhino wrote:

damned right! absolute stormer of a game. tackled everything and anything put in front of him. the issue i have with the anti-union brigade on here is that they have no idea about how to play the game, yet feel that its a crap game.

He made 12 tackles. 12. I grew up watching & playing RU. I didn't see a game of league until I was 19. I feel I am well qualified to comment.

Re: Sam Burgess : Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:44 am  

DHM wrote:

I have always thought Union is better to watch on TV and awful to watch live. As a player and qualified coach I still can't watch a game live just for the game.
However, the spaces and pauses in the game suit TV. The close up TV angles allow you to see what you can't see live.
League is far better to watch live - no contest. But if you add the whole match day experience then it's hard to say. I have had some great days out at big league games, but the best day was me and my 9 year old at Twickenham two years ago for his first international.

Union in this country has issues with ball handling, especially finishing breaks- too easy to go to ground and let someone else make the decision. Most players have no clue what to do if they make a break into open space and support play isn't as good. There is a reason for this, support players in league can afford to overrun the ball carrier if he's tackled, in Union the first man there has to always compete for the ball so support players are not looking to get on the end of a possible offload or break, they are looking to clean out after the ball carrier is tackled. As a result they arrive late - too late to back up a clean break.
The RFU is trying to change the junior game to produce players who are first and foremost ball handlers.

RU needs to do something about the scrums - as a major way of restarting the game they are a joke. Even at international level it can take 4/5 attempts to complete a scrum. It would also be interesting see what might happen if the scrapped the opportunity to kick directly in to touch from inside your 20 and the mark.

Re: Sam Burgess : Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:46 am  

Him wrote:

I belittle Union, as you put it, because I believe it to be an inferior sport that has less skilled players playing it and tried for nearly a century to destroy rugby league. It's also a sport that benefits hugely from and is very closely allied to the public school network. A network that I detest.

When I talk of Union, I usually mean the pro side of it. The community/amateur side I find to be generally very good, at least in the Yorkshire/North East areas anyway.

i grew up in wales where union is the game of the people, not allied to public schools, more pit villages (all gone now) the english and scottish teams were more the products of public schools and in the scots case Former pupils teams, i think thats why league nearly worked in wales early 80s the cardiff blue dragons had decent crowds and spicy encounters vs salford and widnes early 80s. working class games both, i.m from pontypridd, before the wru killed the club system a top team with a intimidating ground (sardis road, the house of pain) now a semi pro second tier team while the regions struggle to attract crowds,

Re: Sam Burgess : Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:53 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

Yep, one stop before the airport.

I had the pleasure of watching Jonny Wilkinson return from injury in a home game at Kingston Park, he took one penalty kick after about ten minutes and missed it and then five minutes later got injured again, the substitute who replaced him for the rest of the game kicked every single attempt and played like a man possessed, I think that was when he decided a life in the south of France might be nice, or Nice.

not sure ill get chance this weekend as I'm between Whitley Bay & Tynemouth so shall see what happens

ahh good old Wilkinson. Great kicking player but skills with ball in hand left a lot to be desired for me. Think the doctor saw more of him than his tactical coach

Re: Sam Burgess : Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:54 am  

Sal Paradise wrote:

RU needs to do something about the scrums - as a major way of restarting the game they are a joke. Even at international level it can take 4/5 attempts to complete a scrum.

I really don't like what has happened to scrums, it should be a way to restart the game with a genuine contest. It's now a method to generate a penalty and potentially points.

There are some things you could do, but non of it really matters while most referees don't understand what is actually happening.

Re: Sam Burgess : Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:09 am  

DHM wrote:

I really don't like what has happened to scrums, it should be a way to restart the game with a genuine contest. It's now a method to generate a penalty and potentially points.

There are some things you could do, but non of it really matters while most referees don't understand what is actually happening.

Perhaps if they had differential penalties from scrums and you couldn't kick for goal following and infringement?

Re: Sam Burgess : Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:16 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

And that is different to every professional sport in the land because ... ?

Also, what you described as the foundation of the Leeds team is true and applies equally to Newcastle, one made it succeed, one clearly hasn't, its bizarre and even the professionals don't know why - I'll fly a kite here and suggest regional identity, you could dress a tiddlywinks team in black and white and blag some free coverage in The Chronicle and Geordies would turn up to watch them.

I don't really know who the Falcons fans are, but from my experience they are not all NUFC / Toon Tiddlywinks fans. I know maybe 20 football season ticket holders but none who go to the rugby.

Similarly, Gateshead Thunder aren't turning people away and the basketball and ice hockey teams have loyal (but not overflowing) crowds. I think the 'en masse automatic attendance' at the football in Newcastle is based on the stories you were told as a youngster (whether by family members or others) of the older players; you are unconsciously exposed to the history and culture by those around you thus despite your relative youth you have a longer history in a sense because you know about the players that were long-retired before you were born!

Newcastle does have its more well-off areas with bigger houses and because it is noticeably cheaper there even in contrast to Leeds, if you have wealth it will take you further in the North East. I guess I wonder if a decent chunk of RU fans are from the more typically privileged backgrounds for whom RU was the everyday sport.

Re: Sam Burgess : Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:03 am  

JerryChicken wrote:

And that is different to every professional sport in the land because ... ?

Also, what you described as the foundation of the Leeds team is true and applies equally to Newcastle, one made it succeed, one clearly hasn't, its bizarre and even the professionals don't know why - I'll fly a kite here and suggest regional identity, you could dress a tiddlywinks team in black and white and blag some free coverage in The Chronicle and Geordies would turn up to watch them.

Has Newcastle ever had RU presence before that?