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Re: Brexit Anyone? (2)
Post Sun May 27, 2018 7:35 am
Posted by Sal Paradise on Sun May 27, 2018 7:35 am
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The Ghost of '99 wrote:
This is perhaps the most simplistic of Brexiter's many simple views of the world. It's all black/white, our money/no benefit. The idea of the EU, proven over many years is mutual economic benefit. We get access to the markets of other countries, they get access to ours. We pay more into the central funds because we are rich. But then EU expenditures help areas become more prosperous so they can buy more of our goods and have better infrastructure so our goods can get to market more quickly.

The UK's economic performance before and after being in the EU are so divergent (and our economy post vote so divergent from other economies) that the factual benefits of membership are so obvious that it's increasingly rare to find a Brexiter dispute them. Instead they are retreating to their nationalistic "control" argument despite all plausible scenarios leaving us with less control and no say in the rules we will inevitably have to abide by.


The UK has a huge negative balance of payments with the EU - so we pump money in so some countries become more prosperous so they can charge us more for their goods - perhaps that really is too simplistic?

Yes they may be able to buy more of our goods but we will also buy much more of their goods - seems a lose lose to me.

Nobody is saying it will be easy - but impossible no, as I keep saying there are plenty of countries especially in the far east that don't seem to have any difficulties trading with the EU without the EU putting any real restructions on how they operate e.g. working practises - if a country has something the EU wants no trade barriers will stop it being bought.
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Re: Brexit Anyone? (2)
Post Sun May 27, 2018 9:42 am
Posted by wrencat1873 on Sun May 27, 2018 9:42 am
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Sal Paradise wrote:
The UK has a huge negative balance of payments with the EU - so we pump money in so some countries become more prosperous so they can charge us more for their goods - perhaps that really is too simplistic?

Yes they may be able to buy more of our goods but we will also buy much more of their goods - seems a lose lose to me.

Nobody is saying it will be easy - but impossible no, as I keep saying there are plenty of countries especially in the far east that don't seem to have any difficulties trading with the EU without the EU putting any real restructions on how they operate e.g. working practises - if a country has something the EU wants no trade barriers will stop it being bought.


Can you explain the "huge negative balance of payments" please. Do you mean in terms of trade or, contributions ?

I would also argue that Britain, without the influence of the EU, would go backwards, in terms of employment legislation, and on a topical note "green issues", something which can only change "collectively", an area where the EU is particularly strong.

And, you talk about lose/lose ??
Changing a trading relationship with your "biggest customer" is always fraught with danger.
Most businesses would prefer "not rocking the boat", however, The UK has decided to gamble on getting some better deals from being on the outside of the trading union.
This is not something that most business leaders would recommend, little wonder that the CBI were so against "leaving".
Re: Brexit Anyone? (2)
Post Sun May 27, 2018 5:14 pm
Posted by Sal Paradise on Sun May 27, 2018 5:14 pm
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Our negative trade balance with the EU - hope that helps.

If labour get in power it will be impossible for firms to operate given the employment views of Corbyn/McDonald and their stooge McClusky. Every company will have to be full unionised - the board will be made up of shop floor workers that are members of a union etc. That is if Labour haven't nationalised it!!

Most businesses don't have to pay a huge sum for the opportunity to trade - perhaps they would take a different view. Most businessmen will tell you the "margin is in the risk". Steady is OK but its not a growth strategy. If you never take any risks you will standstill and those taking calculated risks will pass you by.

On green matters - unless you get the US and China to play ball its a waste of time - the EU is impotent when it comes to either of these two.
Last edited by Sal Paradise on Mon May 28, 2018 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brexit Anyone? (2)
Post Mon May 28, 2018 7:45 am
Posted by The Ghost of '99 on Mon May 28, 2018 7:45 am
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Sal Paradise wrote:
Yes they may be able to buy more of our goods but we will also buy much more of their goods - seems a lose lose to me.
What? It's the definition of economic win/win!

Tories have been saying for years that trade deficits don't matter. Has there been a sudden change of heart on this as well to fit into a Brexit narrative?
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Re: Brexit Anyone? (2)
Post Mon May 28, 2018 8:34 am
Posted by Sal Paradise on Mon May 28, 2018 8:34 am
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An economic win/win - an ability to trade with whom you want at a price that generates sufficient profits to enable the firm to invest for the future i.e. a long term proposition.

Trade deficits, do they matter - only if you are funding part of the very reason for the deficit - would you not agree?
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Re: Brexit Anyone? (2)
Post Tue May 29, 2018 12:39 pm
Posted by wrencat1873 on Tue May 29, 2018 12:39 pm
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Sal Paradise wrote:
An economic win/win - an ability to trade with whom you want at a price that generates sufficient profits to enable the firm to invest for the future i.e. a long term proposition.

Trade deficits, do they matter - only if you are funding part of the very reason for the deficit - would you not agree?


The deficit would be a whole lot less if our currency had greater value - please see previous posts on the weakening £ following the referendum ??

You seem like you want it both ways ??

Cake and eating it spring to mind :lol: :lol:
Re: Brexit Anyone? (2)
Post Tue May 29, 2018 1:21 pm
Posted by Bullseye on Tue May 29, 2018 1:21 pm
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Still can't see the Irish border question being resolved without a customs union.

Everything I read suggest the technology for a border like Ireland's is years away.

WTO rules demand a border too so no deal means border. Can't see anything other than at the very least an extended customs union until such time as the tech is workable.
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Re: Brexit Anyone? (2)
Post Tue May 29, 2018 2:41 pm
Posted by Sal Paradise on Tue May 29, 2018 2:41 pm
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Perhaps you are correct as long as we are free to negotiate with other non-EU countries during this period all is good
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Re: Brexit Anyone? (2)
Post Tue May 29, 2018 3:21 pm
Posted by wrencat1873 on Tue May 29, 2018 3:21 pm
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Sal Paradise wrote:
Perhaps you are correct as long as we are free to negotiate with other non-EU countries during this period all is good


Why should we be able to do this ?
It's not the EU that have failed to agree to a deal, it's our own governments utter inability to agree between themselves (never mind getting Parliament, House of Lords and the General Public to agree).
We should adhere to the EU rules until such time as we are out, if not, "we" will just keep going on and on and on.

"Our" lack of a Brexit strategy was obvious at the outset and the cabinet still cant agree the best way forward, which is absolutely scary, when you consider that certain elements have already been "agreed".

Worth remembering that this is all our (the UK's) own doing and again, The EU, with 26 nations to satisfy and yet we cant manage to have 21 people singing from the same song sheet, it's embarrassing.

Remember the Tory mantra "strong and stable" what a bloody joke :CRAZY:
Re: Brexit Anyone? (2)
Post Tue May 29, 2018 6:22 pm
Posted by Sal Paradise on Tue May 29, 2018 6:22 pm
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Agree about the strong and stable - May is an embarrassment.

I have always said WTO is the best way forward - it works for many other countries and there is no logical reason why it can't work here. Perhaps it will encourage us to become more self sufficient or reduce our dependence on Europe.
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