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King Monkey wrote:
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Re: Russians 10 Isis Nil : Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:27 pm  
Mugwump wrote:
It seems astonishing that Britain & the US could be in favour of an unashamedly fascist goose-stepping Ukrainian government - especially after the millions who were butchered at the hands of Hitler.


Is it really that surprising given that the Nazis were funded by some of the most powerful people in America at the time? Prescott Bush financed them, Henry Ford (a great admirer of AH) help build their tanks, and the British Royal family were Nazi sympathisers?
A theory I've recently come across is, that the Nazi regime was seen as the first step to installing fascist rule through out the world. This was because the Monarchs of Europe, and the wealthy American investors were terrified of the Bolsheviks, and republican socialism spreading west. So the Nazi regime was put into power through American investors, and weapons manufacturers. The British monarchy also had the extra incentive because they were related to the Tsars whom had been butchered by the Bolsheviks.
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Re: Russians 10 Isis Nil : Tue Nov 17, 2015 10:15 am  
Charlie Sheen wrote:
Is it really that surprising given that the Nazis were funded by some of the most powerful people in America at the time? Prescott Bush financed them, Henry Ford (a great admirer of AH) help build their tanks, and the British Royal family were Nazi sympathisers?
A theory I've recently come across is, that the Nazi regime was seen as the first step to installing fascist rule through out the world. This was because the Monarchs of Europe, and the wealthy American investors were terrified of the Bolsheviks, and republican socialism spreading west. So the Nazi regime was put into power through American investors, and weapons manufacturers. The British monarchy also had the extra incentive because they were related to the Tsars whom had been butchered by the Bolsheviks.


It's surprising set against the context of politics - as it is supposed to work. The kind of guff we are bombarded with from an early age. But I agree - politics has never worked in such fashion.

As for the forces at work which led to WWII - here we run into a similar dichotomy. Even before WWII had ended fiction and fact were exchanging places in recorded history. No war since records began has ever been as thoroughly written about and yet it's surprising how little of this stuff has any basis in fact. I recently read the biography of Joseph Goebbels by Peter Longerich, primarily because I wanted to understand how both the man and the party became so effective at the science of propaganda. From the outset I was dissatisfied with this book. I found it utterly impossible to believe that Longerich's Goebbels could ever have possessed the kind of managerial skills, clarity of thought and political clout which was required to manage a task of this magnitude. We're talking about the scientific management of an entire nation's culture right down to the finest details - by a man who, according to Longerich, could scarcely manage his own neuroses. The biography is supposed to be drawn directly from the pages of Goebbels' own diaries - but whether it bears any resemblance to them I really don't know. And even if it does - I'm still none the wiser. At some point I plan to look at them - but given that there is some controversy over the editing of these diaries immediately after WWII I suspect I'll be wasting my time.

For me it's just one in a lengthy list of a contradictions which have nagged at me for many years. For example, I've never been able to comprehend why members of the notoriously elitist Prussian General Staff would EVER agree to take orders from a former corporal who wasn't even born in Germany. I mean, it's like being asked to believe that Prince Philip would be willing to take orders from an NCO from Widnes.

I'm not suggesting that the likes of Hitler and company didn't exist. Of course they did. But I don't think for one minute that these people were the architects of Nazi Germany. I think it required the combined efforts of big capital, big industry, the aristocracy and the military who together co-opted the brightest minds in academia, the media etc. I think this plan was put into action perhaps even before the end of WWI by Ludendorff and Hindenberg with financing coming from the major US & British banks and technical expertise provided by companies such as Ford, IBM etc. Importantly, part of the plan demanded the creation of very visible leadership.

I mean, it's awfully convenient having all these egomaniacs ostentatiously strutting about on celluloid in the event of the question of BLAME emerging should the plan fail. So whilst Goering, Himmler and company took the fall at Nuremberg the directors of I.G. Farben, Krupp, Volkswagen all emerged from the war better off than ever. In the wake of WWII the US was practically crawling with former Nazis. It's a measure of how ludicrous the whole situation was when even the likes of J. Edgar Hoover (hardly a bastion of liberal freedoms) openly complained about America becoming a second home for the Third Reich.

On the question of eugenics - the partially successful Nazi defence at Nuremberg was, "Look - it was the US which taught us this stuff. Why pick on us when eugenics was primarily an American creation?"
Once Roosevelt was out of the way the establishment soon obliterated what remained of the New Deal in Washington with the phony notion of the "Red Menace". Attack dogs such as Joseph McCarthy and Dick Nixon were used to clear out any and all opposition to a wind-down of WWII military spending and then these very same Nazis were used to great effect battling the Communists (who themselves were not what they seemed).

It reminds me of the quote attributed to Col. Fletcher Prouty which was given by Donald Sutherland in Oliver Stone's seminal film, JFK:

"The organizing principle of any society, Mr. Garrison, is for war. The authority of the state over its people resides in its war powers"
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Re: Russians 10 Isis Nil : Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:06 am  
Mugwump wrote:
Russia is arguably the single most poorly understood nation on the face of the earth .


Yes poor misunderstood Russia. 3 partitions of Poland that destroyed that nation, which at the time was the most democratic, multi-cultural and tolerant in Europe. Then they sought to eradicate Polish culture and identity. The Russian Tsarist regime imposed the worst form of autocratic monarchy over Eastern Europe and spread terror and anti-semitic pogroms across the territories it conquered. Later Russia started World War 1 that resulted in millions of deaths. Then the Bolsheviks took over from the Tsar, after one of Russia's brief flirtations with democracy, and invaded and invaded Eastern Europe to destroy the newly established Polish nation. Then they spent 20 years or so killing millions of millions of Ukrainians, Jews and others within the Soviet Union, before allying with the Nazis in 1939 to destroy Poland once more. They then subjected the Poles to years of mass rape, attempted cultural annihilation, deportation of Poles to Siberian gulags, dismantled its industry and crippled its economy, destroyed its intelligentsia and cultural heritage and promoting the murder of Jews. They then conquered the whole of Eastern Europe and subjected the people to economic backwardness and political tyranny. Yes it is the poor Russians who are poor misunderstood victims of history.

Given the pro-Russian propaganda you continue to regurgitate on this thread it is clear that you are either a typical left-winger hostile to democracy and liberty, or you have being watching too much Russia Today. However if America / GB are so bad why do we have good relations with our neighbours and why is there mass immigration into our countries? If Russia is so good why is it despised by almost all of its neighbours and why does it face a significant decline in population?
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Re: Russians 10 Isis Nil : Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:14 am  
David Titan wrote:
Yes poor misunderstood Russia. 3 partitions of Poland that destroyed that nation, which at the time was the most democratic, multi-cultural and tolerant in Europe. Then they sought to eradicate Polish culture and identity. The Russian Tsarist regime imposed the worst form of autocratic monarchy over Eastern Europe and spread terror and anti-semitic pogroms across the territories it conquered. Later Russia started World War 1 that resulted in millions of deaths. Then the Bolsheviks took over from the Tsar, after one of Russia's brief flirtations with democracy, and invaded and invaded Eastern Europe to destroy the newly established Polish nation. Then they spent 20 years or so killing millions of millions of Ukrainians, Jews and others within the Soviet Union, before allying with the Nazis in 1939 to destroy Poland once more. They then subjected the Poles to years of mass rape, attempted cultural annihilation, deportation of Poles to Siberian gulags, dismantled its industry and crippled its economy, destroyed its intelligentsia and cultural heritage and promoting the murder of Jews. They then conquered the whole of Eastern Europe and subjected the people to economic backwardness and political tyranny. Yes it is the poor Russians who are poor misunderstood victims of history.


I really don't know where you get your history from (free in bitesize chunks when you buy a Big Mac & fries, perhaps?). The above contains so many factual errors and outright fabrications I'd still be here tomorrow correcting them if I could be bothered.

Given the pro-Russian propaganda you continue to regurgitate on this thread it is clear that you are either a typical left-winger hostile to democracy and liberty, or you have being watching too much Russia Today. However if America / GB are so bad why do we have good relations with our neighbours and why is there mass immigration into our countries? If Russia is so good why is it despised by almost all of its neighbours and why does it face a significant decline in population?


Good grief, you really ARE deluded if you think I'm some kind of misty-eyed fellow traveller. :lol:

As for highfalutin concepts such as "democracy" (ask the Greeks what they thought about democracy after the entire Athenian navy was obliterated in Sicily) - I'll leave you to believe in that. It sounds as though you are good at BELIEVING. :lol:
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