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Re: Wot no Greek referendum thread? : Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:02 pm  
Dally wrote:
The issue is very simple - monetary union without fiscal union (and I would argue, linguistic union) is unsustainable. The while thing is fundamentally flawed and one has two ways to go - failure or one state. The one state solution also won't work because Germans will not wish to support the poorer regions in pother countries ad infinitum. The sooner they admit it is destined to fail and break the EZ and then EU up the better. Can't work, won't work.


The direction of global geopolitics has been overwhelmingly toward greater and greater "union" since the fall of the Berlin Wall. Which means the days of fully independent and autonomous states are over.

You are looking at this issue from an entirely outmoded perspective. First you must remember that over the last twenty years there has been a massive effort throughout the West to bleed power away from state governments and into the hands of the big banks and major industrial sectors. The end result has been the complete "hollowing out" of the state as traditionally defined.

The only frame of reference in which the notion of fully autonomous states remains is the one representing the 99.5% of EU inhabitants who wield no power whatsoever. If the remaining .5% ever saw themselves as patriotic citizens they quietly abandoned such loyalties some time ago in favour of joining a new super-class of EU power-brokers who see no distinction between "Spain" or "Italy" or "Germany" or "Greece". In public, of course, they wrap themselves in the flag like true super-patriots because it is politically expedient to do so. But privately they see only categories of people - those Europeans whom they can exploit and those they cannot.

None of this would be possible if it weren't for the media-contrived fiction of autonomous, independent sovereign "democracies" which allows them to offer a semi-plausible narrative for us to chew on whilst they amass greater wealth and power undisturbed.

It's a "Punch & Judy" show meant to fix the public's attention on convenient fictions and keep us guessing like in a parlour game whilst the real power brokers who form part of the "Deep State" below reach into your back pocket and empty out every last penny.

In order to make sense of the madness you really have to rid yourself of this illusion that "Germany" is an indivisible political entity lead by "Angela Merkel" and her cabinet. For a start - if it were possible to accurately determine the hundred most powerful people who at the very least claim to be German, Angela Merkel's name would be nowhere on it. Like David Cameron and probably every other political leader in the EU - she is little more than a highly-paid fall guy. Her job is to take "responsibility" for the effects of policies she has no control over. Once her term is up she'll be quickly sidelined and gagged - ready for the next fall guy's appearance.

The REAL power-brokers are the unelected, unaccountable and largely unknown people currently compiling the final draft of TTIP. Bear in mind that there are US CONGRESSMEN can't even sneak a peek at that document. And those that do must sign non-disclosure agreements threatening instant death should they reveal the presence of so much as a full-stop.

So, right now the fiction is "Greek Debt". But it could just as easily be anything. The .5% who are attempting to own Greece (remember, to THEM "Greece" doesn't exist) also own the media so they can say what they like. People will believe anything if it's wrapped in sufficient Authority.
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Re: Wot no Greek referendum thread? : Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:50 pm  
Your first sentence confuses me. Where is this greater union apparent, aside from the EU. The Soviet Bloc collapsed, the UK is fracturing, large parts of the Middle East are fracturing (aside from the inexorable growth of "Islamic State". It seems to me that pressures and realities are exactly the opposite to what you suggest. Accordingly, I have not yet read the rest of your post.
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Re: Wot no Greek referendum thread? : Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:19 pm  
Dally wrote:
Your first sentence confuses me. Where is this greater union apparent, aside from the EU. The Soviet Bloc collapsed, the UK is fracturing, large parts of the Middle East are fracturing (aside from the inexorable growth of "Islamic State". It seems to me that pressures and realities are exactly the opposite to what you suggest. Accordingly, I have not yet read the rest of your post.


I'm currently reading "The Matarese Countdown" by Robert Ludlum and although it's a work of fiction, first published in 1997, there are some striking similarities to the current global situation. The only absence so far is little, if any, mention of China
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Re: Wot no Greek referendum thread? : Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:42 pm  
Dally wrote:
Your first sentence confuses me. Where is this greater union apparent, aside from the EU. The Soviet Bloc collapsed, the UK is fracturing, large parts of the Middle East are fracturing (aside from the inexorable growth of "Islamic State". It seems to me that pressures and realities are exactly the opposite to what you suggest. Accordingly, I have not yet read the rest of your post.


You are right and you are wrong. You have too look at this issue at an entirely different level of abstraction. So yes, on the surface the EU seems to be falling apart. Nation states are hovering close to bankruptcy and you get the feeling that it would only take some minor economic tremor for the entire European experiment to fall apart.

But in order to really understand what's taking place you have to look at this from the perspective of the true owners of Europe. I've said this many times: Trans-national capital HATES state governments. They are the only force capable of placing restrictions on their activities. Ever since the US Government broke up John. D. Rockerfeller's Standard Oil, then followed by the even bigger catastrophe (from their perspective) - Franklin D. Roosevelt who was the last US President who wielded near-absolute control over American industry, the major banks and corporations have been engaged in a bloody, winner-takes-all battle to arrest the influence of the "Big Powers".

Initially they tried a direct assault with the creation of the United Nations (a Rockefeller, Chase-Manhattan etc. front from the outset) which was meant to evolve into a supra-national political entity whose authority would gradually supersede the powers of individual states. There's a good deal of logic to this plan - especially as world population grows exponentially whilst the planet's ability to support such can only ever follow a linear path. It's noticeable that ever since the creation of the United Nations ALL US Presidents have instead of passing the vote for foreign wars to Congress (as the US Constitution dictates) have refused - often bullying the United Nations instead into creating a pretext. Devolving executive authority for foreign wars was the first step in the gradual transference of power to a higher-level authority. An authority primarily under the control of the big banks and major industrial sectors.

When Nixon and Kissinger moved to a position of "detente" with the Soviets and then brought China back into the fold (the initial loss of which to Mao's Communists was a grievous wound the "Eastern Establishment" had never got over) everything seemed to be moving along smoothly.

Unfortunately, Watergate and the removal of Richard Nixon signified a titanic power coup in the United States. For the first time in living memory the Wall Street crowd were out on their ear as the new force in global politics (Big Oil & the automotive sector and the military industrial complex) were calling the shots. These people (including the NeoCons, the Bush family and two young and very ambitious men called Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney) were completely opposed to any kind of accommodation with the Russians or Chinese and they loathed the United Nations.

As the Middle East collapsed into anarchy with a series of "Oil Shocks" not to mention the panic caused by the Iranian Revolution, plans for a global government stalled and the UN became something of a lame duck.

It took until the mid-eighties and the collapse of the Soviet Union before both sides settled their differences and an entirely new plan was hatched upon. Ronald Reagan cut US funding to the United Nations and his successor George H.W. Bush's signaled the beginning of this new assault on state sovereignty with his "New World Order" speech.

Attacking state sovereignty head on was deemed to have been a mistake. It was too easy for opponents to wrap themselves in the flag and appeal to the patriotic sentiment of their respective peoples. The new strategy involved the hollowing out of state authority through legally binding "Trade Agreements" such as GATT, NAFTA, WTO and now TPP (all of which were codified in secret by Wall Street lawyers working on behalf of the big banks and financial institutions) and patent law.

No less important to this "New World Order" has been the push toward "Union" not just in Europe but the United States, too. The NAFTA agreement (which was bitterly opposed by members of Congress who saw through this facade") brought the US, Canada and Mexico closer toward some kind of EU arrangement. Admittedly progress has been slower across the Atlantic (not least because forces opposed to this union are that much stronger) but it carries on unabated.

But the REAL GENIUS of the plan was leaving in place the fiction of democratic governance for the remaining 99.5%. Political leaders who were amenable to these changes and would later attach their signatures to these trade deals were fast-tracked and their election campaigns bankrolled (Clinton, Obama, Thatcher, Major, Blair, Sarkozy etc. etc.) whilst opponents were crushed (this is the reason so many herald from outside the Patrician class where previously this was the norm).

But none of this would be possible without monopolization of the media by the very same .5% in order to facilitate the orderly transferal of power - no questions asked.

I mean, regardless of our politics and world view, all of us at some fundamental level SENSE, that our media is not giving us the full truth. Yes?

I should point out that the .5% have faced significant opposition. Several times I've mentioned the tragic case of Yugoslavia. The death of Tito left a vibrant semi-socialist nation which, from the outset, had no wish to join the EU or any other globalist entity. For a brief moment it seriously challenged the hegemony of not just the EU but the US Federal Reserve.

Those pushing for this move toward global governance had planned for precisely such an eventuality by "encouraging" friendly US governments to redistribute military forces into "Theaters of Operation" matching this interim phase of regional power blocs (the EU, North America, the Middle East etc.) This is the "enforcement arm" of the .5% and its first real application was in facilitating the break-up of Yugoslavia so that it could never again present a challenge to their push toward globalism. The country was smashed, broken up and sucked into the EU. It also served as a public reminder to any nation (whether it be in the EU or anywhere within the US military's sphere of influence) that any attempt to arrest the movement toward global hegemony would meet with swift and savage reprisals.

Before you correctly point out that I'm being too "US-centric" when discussing the EU we simply must remember that right now the United States is no different to imperial Rome, or the British Empire. Sure, the US can say it isn't an empire all it likes. But if so - why the need for over a thousand KNOWN bases spread across the globe? "The World's Policeman" be damned! You think the Japanese or the Italians or the Panamanians WANT those bases on their soil? They know damned well they exist as a potent reminded not to "Step out of Line".

Sixty years ago those bases were (largely) the tools of the President. But now their allegiance is to the very same banks and corporations who make their money out of foreign wars.

I'll remind you that we're talking about layers of abstraction here. At OUR level sovereign states function no differently than a hundred years ago. Yes, there has been a move toward greater unity in the EU but governments still operate visibly and independently.

But what you don't see (because the media represents the interests of the .5%) is the gradual wearing away of government's ability to interfere at an economic level. So, whilst someone such as David Cameron could THEORETICALLY and perhaps even CONSTITUTIONALLY reverse the gradual privatization of the NHS those very same trade agreements preclude the possibility entirely because their legality supersedes domestic law.

If state governments are as free to dictate economic policy as the media would have us believe - why is it that the changes we've seen in the UK (including the gradual removal of safety nets such as welfare, environmental policy etc. ) are happening throughout almost all of the Western world - at precisely the same pace)?

Do you understand now what I mean when I say state sovereignty is a media fiction meant for me and you (the 99.5%)? Do you see what I mean when I say the future (at least over the short term) will be one in which we possess the illusion of self-determination whilst the owners of the planet operate with total freedom at a level completely outside our ability to influence legally?

TTIP is perhaps the penultimate phase to the realization of a plan nearly a hundred years in the making. It speaks volumes that the media says almost nothing about its meaning or likely effect on us. Even if it chose to investigate (which it most certainly won't) it has about as much knowledge of its contents as those US Congressmen who were shocked to discover their access had been denied.
Dally wrote:
Your first sentence confuses me. Where is this greater union apparent, aside from the EU. The Soviet Bloc collapsed, the UK is fracturing, large parts of the Middle East are fracturing (aside from the inexorable growth of "Islamic State". It seems to me that pressures and realities are exactly the opposite to what you suggest. Accordingly, I have not yet read the rest of your post.


You are right and you are wrong. You have too look at this issue at an entirely different level of abstraction. So yes, on the surface the EU seems to be falling apart. Nation states are hovering close to bankruptcy and you get the feeling that it would only take some minor economic tremor for the entire European experiment to fall apart.

But in order to really understand what's taking place you have to look at this from the perspective of the true owners of Europe. I've said this many times: Trans-national capital HATES state governments. They are the only force capable of placing restrictions on their activities. Ever since the US Government broke up John. D. Rockerfeller's Standard Oil, then followed by the even bigger catastrophe (from their perspective) - Franklin D. Roosevelt who was the last US President who wielded near-absolute control over American industry, the major banks and corporations have been engaged in a bloody, winner-takes-all battle to arrest the influence of the "Big Powers".

Initially they tried a direct assault with the creation of the United Nations (a Rockefeller, Chase-Manhattan etc. front from the outset) which was meant to evolve into a supra-national political entity whose authority would gradually supersede the powers of individual states. There's a good deal of logic to this plan - especially as world population grows exponentially whilst the planet's ability to support such can only ever follow a linear path. It's noticeable that ever since the creation of the United Nations ALL US Presidents have instead of passing the vote for foreign wars to Congress (as the US Constitution dictates) have refused - often bullying the United Nations instead into creating a pretext. Devolving executive authority for foreign wars was the first step in the gradual transference of power to a higher-level authority. An authority primarily under the control of the big banks and major industrial sectors.

When Nixon and Kissinger moved to a position of "detente" with the Soviets and then brought China back into the fold (the initial loss of which to Mao's Communists was a grievous wound the "Eastern Establishment" had never got over) everything seemed to be moving along smoothly.

Unfortunately, Watergate and the removal of Richard Nixon signified a titanic power coup in the United States. For the first time in living memory the Wall Street crowd were out on their ear as the new force in global politics (Big Oil & the automotive sector and the military industrial complex) were calling the shots. These people (including the NeoCons, the Bush family and two young and very ambitious men called Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney) were completely opposed to any kind of accommodation with the Russians or Chinese and they loathed the United Nations.

As the Middle East collapsed into anarchy with a series of "Oil Shocks" not to mention the panic caused by the Iranian Revolution, plans for a global government stalled and the UN became something of a lame duck.

It took until the mid-eighties and the collapse of the Soviet Union before both sides settled their differences and an entirely new plan was hatched upon. Ronald Reagan cut US funding to the United Nations and his successor George H.W. Bush's signaled the beginning of this new assault on state sovereignty with his "New World Order" speech.

Attacking state sovereignty head on was deemed to have been a mistake. It was too easy for opponents to wrap themselves in the flag and appeal to the patriotic sentiment of their respective peoples. The new strategy involved the hollowing out of state authority through legally binding "Trade Agreements" such as GATT, NAFTA, WTO and now TPP (all of which were codified in secret by Wall Street lawyers working on behalf of the big banks and financial institutions) and patent law.

No less important to this "New World Order" has been the push toward "Union" not just in Europe but the United States, too. The NAFTA agreement (which was bitterly opposed by members of Congress who saw through this facade") brought the US, Canada and Mexico closer toward some kind of EU arrangement. Admittedly progress has been slower across the Atlantic (not least because forces opposed to this union are that much stronger) but it carries on unabated.

But the REAL GENIUS of the plan was leaving in place the fiction of democratic governance for the remaining 99.5%. Political leaders who were amenable to these changes and would later attach their signatures to these trade deals were fast-tracked and their election campaigns bankrolled (Clinton, Obama, Thatcher, Major, Blair, Sarkozy etc. etc.) whilst opponents were crushed (this is the reason so many herald from outside the Patrician class where previously this was the norm).

But none of this would be possible without monopolization of the media by the very same .5% in order to facilitate the orderly transferal of power - no questions asked.

I mean, regardless of our politics and world view, all of us at some fundamental level SENSE, that our media is not giving us the full truth. Yes?

I should point out that the .5% have faced significant opposition. Several times I've mentioned the tragic case of Yugoslavia. The death of Tito left a vibrant semi-socialist nation which, from the outset, had no wish to join the EU or any other globalist entity. For a brief moment it seriously challenged the hegemony of not just the EU but the US Federal Reserve.

Those pushing for this move toward global governance had planned for precisely such an eventuality by "encouraging" friendly US governments to redistribute military forces into "Theaters of Operation" matching this interim phase of regional power blocs (the EU, North America, the Middle East etc.) This is the "enforcement arm" of the .5% and its first real application was in facilitating the break-up of Yugoslavia so that it could never again present a challenge to their push toward globalism. The country was smashed, broken up and sucked into the EU. It also served as a public reminder to any nation (whether it be in the EU or anywhere within the US military's sphere of influence) that any attempt to arrest the movement toward global hegemony would meet with swift and savage reprisals.

Before you correctly point out that I'm being too "US-centric" when discussing the EU we simply must remember that right now the United States is no different to imperial Rome, or the British Empire. Sure, the US can say it isn't an empire all it likes. But if so - why the need for over a thousand KNOWN bases spread across the globe? "The World's Policeman" be damned! You think the Japanese or the Italians or the Panamanians WANT those bases on their soil? They know damned well they exist as a potent reminded not to "Step out of Line".

Sixty years ago those bases were (largely) the tools of the President. But now their allegiance is to the very same banks and corporations who make their money out of foreign wars.

I'll remind you that we're talking about layers of abstraction here. At OUR level sovereign states function no differently than a hundred years ago. Yes, there has been a move toward greater unity in the EU but governments still operate visibly and independently.

But what you don't see (because the media represents the interests of the .5%) is the gradual wearing away of government's ability to interfere at an economic level. So, whilst someone such as David Cameron could THEORETICALLY and perhaps even CONSTITUTIONALLY reverse the gradual privatization of the NHS those very same trade agreements preclude the possibility entirely because their legality supersedes domestic law.

If state governments are as free to dictate economic policy as the media would have us believe - why is it that the changes we've seen in the UK (including the gradual removal of safety nets such as welfare, environmental policy etc. ) are happening throughout almost all of the Western world - at precisely the same pace)?

Do you understand now what I mean when I say state sovereignty is a media fiction meant for me and you (the 99.5%)? Do you see what I mean when I say the future (at least over the short term) will be one in which we possess the illusion of self-determination whilst the owners of the planet operate with total freedom at a level completely outside our ability to influence legally?

TTIP is perhaps the penultimate phase to the realization of a plan nearly a hundred years in the making. It speaks volumes that the media says almost nothing about its meaning or likely effect on us. Even if it chose to investigate (which it most certainly won't) it has about as much knowledge of its contents as those US Congressmen who were shocked to discover their access had been denied.
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Re: Wot no Greek referendum thread? : Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:08 pm  
The U.S. Has just announced a cut in its armed forces. That suggests to me they are starting to think in an isolationist way - quite reasonably given Europe's shameful lack of will to defend itself and exert influence in the works, when there is need. That, allied to Russia and China seemingly being closer than they have been for years, to me suggests a completely different emerging world order than the one that suits your prejudices and what you may have read.
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Re: Wot no Greek referendum thread? : Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:16 pm  
I forgot to mention - on the issue of Greece. Do the Greeks have a debt-problem? Of course. I'd argue their debt is no different to any other EU nation's and is a product of this "hollowing out" process I've mentioned whereby a country's assets are allowed "legally" and "freely" to drain beyond its borders and into the hands of the .5% whilst government and the people are saddled with crippling debt (which can become a "problem" whenever the globalists feel the nation is stepping out of line)

The issue here is NOT Greek debt. The issue here is the formidable challenge posed by a resurgent superpower and an emerging one.

Get yourself a world atlas and put your finger on Greece. Now put your other finger on Sevastopol - home to the Russian fleet.

Do you see the strategic importance of Greece which is ideally positioned to function as a blockade for Russian ships emerging from the Sea of Marmara and the Dardanelles Straight?

Don't you find it odd that Greece, Turkey and the Ukraine are all on the verge of collapse? Don't you find it odd that when you trace your finger from Ukraine, through Greece, across the Bosporus and into Turkey you've pretty much encircled the strategically vital south-western flank of Russia, who along with China form the biggest threat to Western notions of globalism? Co-incidence?
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Re: Wot no Greek referendum thread? : Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:31 pm  
Dally wrote:
The U.S. Has just announced a cut in its armed forces. That suggests to me they are starting to think in an isolationist way - quite reasonably given Europe's shameful lack of will to defend itself and exert influence in the works, when there is need. That, allied to Russia and China seemingly being closer than they have been for years, to me suggests a completely different emerging world order than the one that suits your prejudices


... as opposed to your embarrassing ignorance.

The US military has been cutting soldiers (slowly) for the past decade. If you paid so much as the slightest bit of attention to its activities you'd know these losses have been taken up by private military contractors (who don't count on the casualty statistics, don't qualify for medical treatment etc.). This is the reason both we and the Americans can "pull out" of Iraq and Afghanistan .... without pulling out.
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Re: Wot no Greek referendum thread? : Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:46 pm  
I'm not sure if your point. It seems a them and us conspiracy theory. People always try to look after their own interests that's natural. The fact that some people are good at it is not some great conspiracy simply a signs of weakness among those who let them get away with it.
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Re: Wot no Greek referendum thread? : Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:21 pm  
Dally wrote:
I'm not sure if your point. It seems a them and us conspiracy theory.


You mean like the "class warfare" conspiracy theory Karl Marx talked about?

People always try to look after their own interests that's natural. The fact that some people are good at it is not some great conspiracy simply a signs of weakness among those who let them get away with it.


Do you usually blame the victim in cases of abuse? Do you believe it's the "wife's fault" for not standing up to her husband after he's fractured her skull? Do you believe it's the Iraqi people's fault because they didn't have the wherewithal to stop bombs raining down on them? What about those who were forced to endure Jimmy Savile's cigar-soaked breath over their bodies?
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Re: Wot no Greek referendum thread? : Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:36 pm  
Dally wrote:
I'm not sure if your point. It seems a them and us conspiracy theory. People always try to look after their own interests that's natural. The fact that some people are good at it is not some great conspiracy simply a signs of weakness among those who let them get away with it.

:SHHH: Shhhh...don't mention the 'c' word. He gets upset and might rant.

It's not c*nspiracy, it's da troof and we're all sheeple. 8)

...and a Russian missile flew over Washington and hit the Pentagon. :lol:
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